Why did the Japanese remodel their uniforms?

[Lawrence]

Hello, there has been something bugging me for quite some time about the relationship between Japanese and Chinese Army uniforms. In 1911, the Japanese introduced a new khaki uniform to replace the old, dark blue model with pillbox cap.

This was slightly updated in 1930 but was almost identical.

Now, in May 1938, the Japanese change their uniform dramatically, opting for the stand and fall collar, moving the rank tabs from the shoulders and up to the collar.

The thing is, this uniform is almost identical to the existing Chinese Kuomintang's National Revolutionary Army. Here's Chiang Kai Shek wearing it, the two differences between it and the Japanese 1938 uniform is that the Chinese uniform has external pockets and uses triangles instead of stars for ranks. This uniform also came in a wadded, wintery blue uniform for some units.


http://www.gutenberg-e.org/osc01/images/osc05ai.jpg

The uniform seems to be a militarized style of the Zhongshan or "Mao" suit, popularized by Sun Yat Sen. Here's Chiang wearing a shoddier version of the uniform during the Northern Expedition. The service cap he's wearing seems to have been largely replaced by the flatter, field cap by 1937.

Note, no rank bars are attached to his collar.


http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/ar ... 11_400.jpg

My questions are; (I hope someone can provide an explanation for the first one) why did the Japanese change their uniforms so dramatically? They look very, very similar to their Chinese enemies. At least when they wore shoulder passants, they could tell themselves apart. Why the dramatic shift?

Also, when did that uniform become standard for the Kuomintang's Army? I believe they wore it during the 1932 Shanghai War.

[Eugen Pinak]

Some notes.
1. Khaki uniform was introduced in 1905, not 1911.
2. It was quickly copied by Chinese and used unitil new uniform was introduced in 1928 (of course, old uniform was worn at least for 10 years after that date).
3. If you'll try to compare Chinese (in M28) and Japanese (in M38) soldiers, you'll see, that their silhouettes are quite different and in combat this is much more important, that the cut of the uniform.

As for the reasons of change to collar patches, it was probably because collar patches are less conspicuous.

[Lawrence]

Some notes.
1. Khaki uniform was introduced in 1905, not 1911.

The summer khaki model of the M1886 dark blue tunic was actually introduced in 1904, not 1905. This model was not the same as the M1911 model. It did not have passants on the shoulders indicating rank and did not have swallowtail collar insignia indicating arm of service and regimental numbers.

The khaki 1904 tunic was only an expiermental model to replace the white summer uniform, and to provide better camaflouge. It did not replace the blue uniform altogether, which was worn up until the major uniform change in 1911.

[Eugen Pinak]

Some notes.
1. Khaki uniform was introduced in 1905, not 1911.

The summer khaki model of the M1886 dark blue tunic was actually introduced in 1904, not 1905. This model was not the same as the M1911 model. It did not have passants on the shoulders indicating rank and did not have swallowtail collar insignia indicating arm of service and regimental numbers.

The khaki 1904 tunic was only an expiermental model to replace the white summer uniform, and to provide better camaflouge. It did not replace the blue uniform altogether, which was worn up until the major uniform change in 1911.

According to the book "Japanese Military Uniforms 1841-1929", uniform with passants and collar patches was introduced in 1905 for officers and in 1906 for enlisted men (due to the surplus amount of blue cloth blue version was made for some years).
And M04 uniforms was not just a replacement of summer uniform, as it included khaki greatcoat as well.

[Lawrence]

Some notes.
1. Khaki uniform was introduced in 1905, not 1911.

The summer khaki model of the M1886 dark blue tunic was actually introduced in 1904, not 1905. This model was not the same as the M1911 model. It did not have passants on the shoulders indicating rank and did not have swallowtail collar insignia indicating arm of service and regimental numbers.

The khaki 1904 tunic was only an expiermental model to replace the white summer uniform, and to provide better camaflouge. It did not replace the blue uniform altogether, which was worn up until the major uniform change in 1911.

According to the book "Japanese Military Uniforms 1841-1929", uniform with passants and collar patches was introduced in 1905 for officers and in 1906 for enlisted men (due to the surplus amount of blue cloth blue version was made for some years).
And M04 uniforms was not just a replacement of summer uniform, as it included khaki greatcoat as well.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. According to Osprey's 'Men at Arms; the Russo-Japanese War', the rank system of the 1904 khaki officer uniforms was not the shoulder passants but rather a series of rings and stars on the sleeve. This system was brought back in 1943 in addition with the collar rank insiginia.

The rings and stars were also worn on a model of the dark blue officer uniform, introduced in 1904 too. Before then, officers used a system of Austrian style knots to indicate rank.

In Mike Hewitt's 'Uniforms and Equipment of the Imperial Japanese Army in World War II', he makes mention of the change in 1911 and shows a picture of two soldiers from the Taisho era, wearing the swallowtail collar insiginia and shoulder passants. However, their uniforms are dark blue, not khaki, most likely left over from surplus stocks on the old tunics.

[Eugen Pinak]

Sorry, but I have to disagree. According to Osprey's 'Men at Arms; the Russo-Japanese War', the rank system of the 1904 khaki officer uniforms was not the shoulder passants but rather a series of rings and stars on the sleeve. This system was brought back in 1943 in addition with the collar rank insiginia.

1. Rank insignia were changed in 1905/
2. M1943 rank insignia were different from M1904, even if they looked simillar.

In Mike Hewitt's 'Uniforms and Equipment of the Imperial Japanese Army in World War II', he makes mention of the change in 1911 and shows a picture of two soldiers from the Taisho era, wearing the swallowtail collar insiginia and shoulder passants. However, their uniforms are dark blue, not khaki, most likely left over from surplus stocks on the old tunics.

Not "old tunics", but "old cloth" - the cut was different.

[Lawrence]

1. Rank insignia were changed in 1905/

They kept the ring and star rank insignia. I haven't seen any Army uniform with shoulder passants until 1911-12.

2. M1943 rank insignia were different from M1904, even if they looked simillar.

True. Namely, the 1904 ring and star regulation went like this. Before this, officers wore the Austrian knots on the blue tunics. On the white summer uniforms however, they did apparently wear the ring and star insignia. (note, these are only for officers; enlisted ranks were a series of rings with no stars)

General- three rings, three stars
Lieutenant-General- two rings, three stars
Major-General- one ring, three stars
Colonel- two rings, three stars
Lieutenant-Colonel- two rings, two stars
Major- two rings, one star
Captain- three rings, one star
First Lieutenant- two rings, one star
Second Lieutenant- one ring, one star

The 1943 cuff regulation was a bit different and simpler.

General- three rings, three stars
Lieutenant-General- three rings, two stars
Major-General-three rings, one star
Colonel- two rings, three stars
Lieutenant-Colonel- two rings, two stars
Major- two rings, one star
Captain- one ring, three stars
First Lieutenant- one ring, two stars
Second Lieutenant- one ring, one star

Not "old tunics", but "old cloth" - the cut was different.

That's what I meant.

[Eugen Pinak]

1. Rank insignia were changed in 1905/

They kept the ring and star rank insignia. I haven't seen any Army uniform with shoulder passants until 1911-12.

Well - I was surprised too

[Lawrence]

1. Rank insignia were changed in 1905/

They kept the ring and star rank insignia. I haven't seen any Army uniform with shoulder passants until 1911-12.

Well - I was surprised too

Would you mind posting pictures or a source?

[Eugen Pinak]

This pictures are from the book "Japanese Military Uniforms 1841-1929".

[Lawrence]

Hey Eugen,

Sorry about the lateness of my reply. Upon further examination, I still have to disagree with you about the khaki uniforms. The original khaki uniforms, introduced in 1904, did not have the shoulder rank tabs. Rank was indicated by rings for enlisted men; rings and stars for officers. If you read 'Osprey: Men at Arms 414 The Russo-Japanese War, they never make any mention of shoulder rank insignia. That style of uniform posted above in your pictures (with shoulder rank tabs, swallowtail collar insignia and flatter service cap) seems to have been introduced in 1911.

Observe the pictures below. They were taken during the Russo-Japanese War. Notice how they have no rank tabs on their shoulders, but are wearing the khaki uniform. Essentially, the 1904 khaki uniform was a remodel of the white summer uniform worn during the First Sino-Japanese War, complete with its rings and stars rank system for officers. (Also, in 1904, the rings and stars system was introduced for the dark blue officers uniform as well, replacing the old Austrian knots system)

[Eugen Pinak]

Hey Eugen,

Sorry about the lateness of my reply. Upon further examination, I still have to disagree with you about the khaki uniforms. The original khaki uniforms, introduced in 1904, did not have the shoulder rank tabs. Rank was indicated by rings for enlisted men; rings and stars for officers. If you read 'Osprey: Men at Arms 414 The Russo-Japanese War, they never make any mention of shoulder rank insignia. That style of uniform posted above in your pictures (with shoulder rank tabs, swallowtail collar insignia and flatter service cap) seems to have been introduced in 1911.

Observe the pictures below. They were taken during the Russo-Japanese War. Notice how they have no rank tabs on their shoulders, but are wearing the khaki uniform. Essentially, the 1904 khaki uniform was a remodel of the white summer uniform worn during the First Sino-Japanese War, complete with its rings and stars rank system for officers. (Also, in 1904, the rings and stars system was introduced for the dark blue officers uniform as well, replacing the old Austrian knots system)

1. Men at Arms 414 is full of mistakes - at least about Russian army. So I'm not sure that authors did their job better for the Japanese side.

2.As I already wrote, according to the book "Japanese Military Uniforms 1841-1929", uniform with passants and collar patches was introduced in 1905 for officers and in 1906 for enlisted men (due to the surplus amount of blue cloth blue version was made for some years).

[Lawrence]

Hey Eugen,

Sorry about the lateness of my reply. Upon further examination, I still have to disagree with you about the khaki uniforms. The original khaki uniforms, introduced in 1904, did not have the shoulder rank tabs. Rank was indicated by rings for enlisted men; rings and stars for officers. If you read 'Osprey: Men at Arms 414 The Russo-Japanese War, they never make any mention of shoulder rank insignia. That style of uniform posted above in your pictures (with shoulder rank tabs, swallowtail collar insignia and flatter service cap) seems to have been introduced in 1911.

Observe the pictures below. They were taken during the Russo-Japanese War. Notice how they have no rank tabs on their shoulders, but are wearing the khaki uniform. Essentially, the 1904 khaki uniform was a remodel of the white summer uniform worn during the First Sino-Japanese War, complete with its rings and stars rank system for officers. (Also, in 1904, the rings and stars system was introduced for the dark blue officers uniform as well, replacing the old Austrian knots system)

1. Men at Arms 414 is full of mistakes - at least about Russian army. So I'm not sure that authors did their job better for the Japanese side.

2.As I already wrote, according to the book "Japanese Military Uniforms 1841-1929", uniform with passants and collar patches was introduced in 1905 for officers and in 1906 for enlisted men (due to the surplus amount of blue cloth blue version was made for some years).

Sorry, but Uniforms and Equipment of the Imperial Japanese Army by Mike Hewitt also says that the red passants and swallowtail collar insignia weren't introduced until 1911. I have never seen another source other than the one you listed that states the passants and collar patches were around before 1911.

In fact, I have never seen a photo that colloborates that. I can post a picture of Field Marshal Oyama wearing the 1904 khaki uniform (which has rings and stars rank insignia instead of passants and collar patches) if you'd like. But I have to say that the source you posted is greatly inaccurate.