The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

[OpanaPointer]

Yay for futility.

So, have you read Alan Zimm's book?

[robdab]

nah, I've been too busy exploring Oahu on the ground ...

[OpanaPointer]

nah, I've been too busy exploring Oahu on the ground ...

You should read it, seriously.

[robdab]

If you liked it, I'm sure that it's a good read ... will get to it one of these years ... have lots of recent field notes from Oahu to do more research on first ... but thanks for the recommendation.

[glenn239]

I just noticed this thread got bumped again.

When Mike Wenger's book comes out, it might be time then to revisit this thing.

Zimm - that's the author whose never set foot in a B5N2, never participated in a single carrier mission, but still thought he knew how to introduce micro-management techniques into the Pearl Harbor attack? In real life, keep in mind that Fuchida wasn't even able to signal the one pre-arranged command that was worked out - the plan for surprise attack vs. an assault attack. Seems simple, right? One flare for surprise, two flares for assault? Hey, guess what - turns out it wasn't!

[RichTO90]

I just noticed this thread got bumped again.

When Mike Wenger's book comes out, it might be time then to revisit this thing.

Zimm - that's the author whose never set foot in a B5N2, never participated in a single carrier mission, but still thought he knew how to introduce micro-management techniques into the Pearl Harbor attack? In real life, keep in mind that Fuchida wasn't even able to signal the one pre-arranged command that was worked out - the plan for surprise attack vs. an assault attack. Seems simple, right? One flare for surprise, two flares for assault? Hey, guess what - turns out it wasn't!

Good to see you as always remain a hopeless naif.

No, in fact it is this Zimm:

Dr. Alan D. Zimm is a member of the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, where he heads a section in the Aviation Systems and Advanced Concepts Group. He is a former officer in the US Navy, completing his service as a Commander, and holds degrees in Physics, Operations Research, and Public Administration with a concentration on Policy Analysis and Strategic Planning.

What are your bona fides? And when did YOU or J. Michael Wenger last set foot in a B5N2?

[OpanaPointer]

IIRC he's also a graduate of the Naval War College, was an instructor there.

Glen, read the book. In my 50 years on this topic I've never seen such a careful, thorough, and complete analysis of the attack and the problems inherent it its planning and execution.

[Carl Schwamberger]

" that's the author whose never set foot in a B5N2, never participated in a single carrier mission, but still thought he knew how to introduce micro-management techniques into the Pearl Harbor attack?"

How many here would be able to make the standard implied in that sentence?

[hisashi]

No piece of B5N2 had been preserved in a complete form, anyway.

Putting away heavily damaged pieces occurred in Coral Sea (on Zuikaku after Shokaku was damaged and Shoho was sunk). They desperately needed to wipe out anything on flight deck to accommodate all aircraft coming back. I am not sure it happened at Pearl Harbor.

[RichTO90]

No piece of B5N2 had been preserved in a complete form, anyway.

Exactly, which is what makes Glenn's jibe so childishly true to form.

Putting away heavily damaged pieces occurred in Coral Sea (on Zuikaku after Shokaku was damaged and Shoho was sunk). They desperately needed to wipe out anything on flight deck to accommodate all aircraft coming back. I am not sure it happened at Pearl Harbor.

Nor am I sure it happened...except that a number of participants said it did. That could be a case of conflating events of the Pearl Harbor operation with those of Coral Sea and none were actually dumped. Or it could be a case that some aircraft were tipped over the side, but fewer than what the observers opined. Or it could be a case that exactly what was observed occurred. That is the truth of the very gray world of actual historical events; it isn't the black-and-white/on-or-off world Glenn wishes it to be. And it is most emphatically not the world Glenn imagines where events only align with his belief system...even when his belief system is inconsistent with logic or causation.

[mescal]

Zimm - that's the author whose never set foot in a B5N2, never participated in a single carrier mission, but still thought he knew how to introduce micro-management techniques into the Pearl Harbor attack? In real life, keep in mind that Fuchida wasn't even able to signal the one pre-arranged command that was worked out - the plan for surprise attack vs. an assault attack. Seems simple, right? One flare for surprise, two flares for assault? Hey, guess what - turns out it wasn't!

Well, the Zimm's attempt at "micromanagement" is actually in an Annex of his book.

The core of which consists mainly on reasoning along the following line :
- it is theoretically possible (and it was by 1941) that a sequence of flares can be confusing
- different-colored flares have less potential for confusion
- Japanese had access to coloured flares
- they did not use it
- therefore the plan was suboptimal in this repsect

And please note that you don't need 500+ flying hours in a Kate to understand that an operation planned to last 90 seconds and which actually lasted 10+ minutes had somehow gone wrong (be it in planning, execution or both).

[glenn239]

IIRC he's also a graduate of the Naval War College, was an instructor there.

Glen, read the book. In my 50 years on this topic I've never seen such a careful, thorough, and complete analysis of the attack and the problems inherent it its planning and execution.

Yes, I will definitely. But until then the reservation stands - what I've seen of his modified strike didn't strike me as practical. I seem to recall in this thread sweating bullets over the idea of the 2nd wave having a default target, and whether that could be achieved on the fly.

[glenn239]

Putting away heavily damaged pieces occurred in Coral Sea (on Zuikaku after Shokaku was damaged and Shoho was sunk). They desperately needed to wipe out anything on flight deck to accommodate all aircraft coming back. I am not sure it happened at Pearl Harbor.

Zuikaku ejected many aircraft at Coral Sea, but this, as you say, was under the exceptional circumstance of 1 carrier recovering the strike for its damaged stablemate. Also, at Coral Sea records were kept of the number of aircraft thrown overboard - we know exactly how many of each type. So, if 5th CAR DIV threw aircraft overboard at Hawaii, like at Coral Sea, they should be in the records.

[RichTO90]

So, if 5th CAR DIV threw aircraft overboard at Hawaii, like at Coral Sea, they should be in the records.

Given that those who mention this occurrence at Pearl Harbor - Kusaka, Fuchida, (at least according to both their accounts) and Egusa (at least according to Tagaya) - were on Akagi and Soryu, how 5th Carrier Division enters into the question is beyond me?

[glenn239]

Given that those who mention this occurrence at Pearl Harbor - Kusaka, Fuchida, (at least according to both their accounts) and Egusa (at least according to Tagaya) - were on Akagi and Soryu, how 5th Carrier Division enters into the question is beyond me?

5th CAR DIV was at Hawaii. If it kept records for aircraft ejections at Coral Sea, then it's lack of them for Hawaii suggests 5th might have thrown none overboard. 1st and 2nd CAR might be a different story.