The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

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glenn239
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#166

Post by glenn239 » 05 Jan 2013, 16:41

That's my take as well - maybe some thrown overboard in order to accomodate landings. But otherwise, why not cart it back to Japan?

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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#167

Post by OpanaPointer » 06 Jan 2013, 03:42

It would depend on how long before they could off-load a damaged plane. If they were going straight back to the Home Islands it might be worth keeping it. If they weren't, a call would have to be made.
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#168

Post by Eugen Pinak » 06 Jan 2013, 20:14

OpanaPointer wrote:It would depend on how long before they could off-load a damaged plane. If they were going straight back to the Home Islands it might be worth keeping it. If they weren't, a call would have to be made.
Damaged plane doesn't cry for food - it just stands (maybe even disassembled) in the corner of the hangar as long as it takes.
The only reason that you really need to drop damaged plane overboard, IMHO, was that right now you need absolutely no interferrence with flight operations and re-armament of your planes.

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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#169

Post by OpanaPointer » 07 Jan 2013, 14:34

Eugen Pinak wrote:
OpanaPointer wrote:It would depend on how long before they could off-load a damaged plane. If they were going straight back to the Home Islands it might be worth keeping it. If they weren't, a call would have to be made.
Damaged plane doesn't cry for food - it just stands (maybe even disassembled) in the corner of the hangar as long as it takes.
The only reason that you really need to drop damaged plane overboard, IMHO, was that right now you need absolutely no interferrence with flight operations and re-armament of your planes.
Or it had been scavenged to the point where it was no longer valuable. Or if you're expecting more planes from another source. Or if the CO is sick of looking at beat up planes on the hangar deck. Or...

I was 20 years USN, I heard a few good reasons to dump junk.
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#170

Post by Eugen Pinak » 07 Jan 2013, 15:27

But that wasn't USN. The only other time I've heard about IJN carriers dumping their damaged planes into the sea was Coral Sea, where "Zuikaku" dumped 7 planes when there was simply no place on her flight deck to land "Shokaku" and "Zuikaku" strike groups.

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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#171

Post by glenn239 » 07 Jan 2013, 19:42

OpanaPointer wrote: Or it had been scavenged to the point where it was no longer valuable. Or if you're expecting more planes from another source. Or if the CO is sick of looking at beat up planes on the hangar deck. Or...

I was 20 years USN, I heard a few good reasons to dump junk.
The IJN was plane starved. The USN was the best supplied navy in the history of the world.

There is no point at which a damaged IJN aircraft has no value. Even if shot up beyond repair, it should be stripped of all valuables (guns, engine, etc) and then the holed carcass returned to factory to be melted down. I think that aviation grade alumium was quite valuable to resource starved Japan, even in this state.

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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#172

Post by OpanaPointer » 07 Jan 2013, 20:39

glenn239 wrote:
OpanaPointer wrote: Or it had been scavenged to the point where it was no longer valuable. Or if you're expecting more planes from another source. Or if the CO is sick of looking at beat up planes on the hangar deck. Or...

I was 20 years USN, I heard a few good reasons to dump junk.
The IJN was plane starved. The USN was the best supplied navy in the history of the world.

There is no point at which a damaged IJN aircraft has no value. Even if shot up beyond repair, it should be stripped of all valuables (guns, engine, etc) and then the holed carcass returned to factory to be melted down. I think that aviation grade alumium was quite valuable to resource starved Japan, even in this state.
They might have broken them down I guess, and stashed them wherever. But I'd still hesitate to say it never happened. Sometimes things just fall off the ship for no apparent reason. (Not I ever didn't that kind of thing you understand. (Not without orders, of course.))

When I was active every squadron had a "hangar queen" most of the time after they had been deployed for a while. This was an aircraft that was nearly ready for a major overhaul anyway. They would be used for parts not normally carried on a carrier, like an entire rudder. I remember "the queens' parade" at North Island as one bird farm unloaded them onto trucks to be taken to Miramar for evaluation and/or repair.
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#173

Post by glenn239 » 08 Jan 2013, 19:30

Can't rule out what you describe as maybe happening on occassion.

Nonetheless, the IJN was not resource flush and will not have been as lax with its aircraft as the lavishly supplied USN, and Eugen is unaware of any instances beyond Coral Sea, (where the circumstances were exceptional due to the closing of Shokaku's deck). I posted a reference earlier to about six 'stripped' Vals being thrown overboard, so the mystery continues...

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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#174

Post by OpanaPointer » 08 Jan 2013, 19:49

glenn239 wrote:Can't rule out what you describe as maybe happening on occassion.

Nonetheless, the IJN was not resource flush and will not have been as lax with its aircraft as the lavishly supplied USN, and Eugen is unaware of any instances beyond Coral Sea, (where the circumstances were exceptional due to the closing of Shokaku's deck). I posted a reference earlier to about six 'stripped' Vals being thrown overboard, so the mystery continues...
Agreed.
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#175

Post by Eugen Pinak » 09 Jan 2013, 22:49

Sometimes things just fall off the ship for no apparent reason. (Not I ever didn't that kind of thing you understand. (Not without orders, of course.))
But I am sure, that even in the USN you'll need to have very good explanation, if one of the carrier planes will "suddenly" fall off the ship :wink:
When I was active every squadron had a "hangar queen" most of the time after they had been deployed for a while. This was an aircraft that was nearly ready for a major overhaul anyway. They would be used for parts not normally carried on a carrier, like an entire rudder.
According to kodochoshos, IJN carriers were bereft of such luxury - either plane was able to fly, or it was replaced at first possibility. Of course, some equipment was probably removed from it before sending it ashore, but I doubt, that carrier technicians were able to pull something like rudder removal.

But let's return to P-H attack. According to kodochoshos, not a single plane is listed as "seriously damaged" 8O So what they were throwing overboard?

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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#176

Post by David Thompson » 12 Jan 2013, 02:03

An off-topic post from Glenn239, seeking to carry over a personal controversy from another forum to AHF, was removed by this moderator - DT.

Glenn239 - Drop the personal remarks and leave the personal controversies on the forum where they began. We're not interested in them here.

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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#177

Post by glenn239 » 02 Apr 2013, 22:25

Here,

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Japan/M ... JM-160.htm

On page 32 (chart 6) - the full frontline strength, operational and reserves, of the entire aerial OOB of the Japanese Navy. For the carrier forces -

Type...........Operational.......Reserve
Fighters..........149................10
Dive Bombers....135................3
Torpedo B........189................9

Here,

http://niehorster.orbat.com/014_japan/4 ... fleet.html

The OOB of the carriers including Zuiho, Hosho and Ryujo) were -

Type
Fighters..........163
Dive Bombers....135
Torpedo B........182

The total number of reserve aircraft in the entire carrier fleet was only 22.

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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#178

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 02 Apr 2013, 23:01

OOHH! The "Glass sword"

glenn239
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#179

Post by glenn239 » 03 Apr 2013, 18:46

Reserves seem pretty light for embarking on a world war at 22 aircraft. Glass sword indeed. Wish I'd had that chart when writing the thread, rather than having to simply guess at reserves.

Anyways, seems fairly unlikely, given the complete paucity of reserves, that the Strike Force would be in any hurry to chuck damaged aircraft overboard.

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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#180

Post by robdab » 28 Jul 2014, 23:01

just a bump ...

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