The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

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glenn239
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#196

Post by glenn239 » 18 Sep 2014, 14:35

mescal wrote: And please note that you don't need 500+ flying hours in a Kate to understand that an operation planned to last 90 seconds and which actually lasted 10+ minutes had somehow gone wrong (be it in planning, execution or both).
I'll have to read Zimm's book - when Wenger's comes out I'll get them both. All I've seen so far is what other posters have said about it, including for his alternative attack. The colour coding observation on flares makes good sense - I'm sure if Fuchida and Genda had thought of it, they'd have adapted the suggestion on the spot.

The primary reservation with Zimm's AH plan was that the focus on tactical control over the target seemed to be spending a great deal of effort on something that might have tweaked the historical results a little, but too may have degraded under combat conditions. When I wrote this, I had felt the primary issues that the historical raid failed to properly address were that of a search, maintaining a strike reserve in case of trouble, keeping strike losses to a minimum, and preparing follow-up waves as soon as possible.

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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#197

Post by OpanaPointer » 18 Sep 2014, 22:41

You still have problems with the conduct of the raid with regard to no second attack?
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#198

Post by Eugen Pinak » 19 Sep 2014, 13:08

OpanaPointer wrote:Glen, read the book. In my 50 years on this topic I've never seen such a careful, thorough, and complete analysis of the attack and the problems inherent it its planning and execution.
Zimm's book has several serious mistakes due to the author's spotty technical knowledge and tendency to jump to conclusions. Thoroughness of his analysis is rather shallow, as he doesn't use Japanese sources (save some, that translated into English) to evaluate Japanese operation.
Of course, this doesn't makes true Glenn's ridiculous comments on the book he hasn't even bothered to read before passing his judgement on it.

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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#199

Post by OpanaPointer » 19 Sep 2014, 13:40

Eugen Pinak wrote:Zimm's book has several serious mistakes due to the author's spotty technical knowledge and tendency to jump to conclusions.
I'm sure he'd like to hear about those. Can you share some?
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glenn239
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#200

Post by glenn239 » 19 Sep 2014, 14:21

OpanaPointer wrote:You still have problems with the conduct of the raid with regard to no second attack?
With regards to there being inadequate provisions to account for the possibility of it, or to take better account to the danger of a carrier counterattack if the US carriers were not in port.

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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#201

Post by glenn239 » 19 Sep 2014, 14:32

Eugen Pinak wrote: Of course...
....I haven't passed judgement on Zimm. That cannot be done without reading getting the book and reading it several times and absorbing it. In all I've read about Zimm so far on the net, the only reservation I have is that I wondered if the alternative attack methods could be pulled off.

I see you indicate some technical errors in the book, I'd be interested in hearing what you thought he got wrong, and what you thought he got right.

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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#202

Post by OpanaPointer » 19 Sep 2014, 15:17

glenn239 wrote:
OpanaPointer wrote:You still have problems with the conduct of the raid with regard to no second attack?
With regards to there being inadequate provisions to account for the possibility of it, or to take better account to the danger of a carrier counterattack if the US carriers were not in port.
With the fact that there was no good point to it, not worth the risk.
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glenn239
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#203

Post by glenn239 » 19 Sep 2014, 18:34

OpanaPointer wrote: With the fact that there was no good point to it, not worth the risk.
With 2 carriers missing, searching was practically mandatory - unaccounted for carriers could also be within strike range. With 2 carriers missing, by definition a primary mission aim was unfilled, hence, could be worth the risk.

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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#204

Post by OpanaPointer » 19 Sep 2014, 20:39

glenn239 wrote:
OpanaPointer wrote: With the fact that there was no good point to it, not worth the risk.
With 2 carriers missing, searching was practically mandatory - unaccounted for carriers could also be within strike range. With 2 carriers missing, by definition a primary mission aim was unfilled, hence, could be worth the risk.
Why?
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#205

Post by Eugen Pinak » 19 Sep 2014, 21:35

OK, guys - here is what I've noticed:

1. Bashing of Yamamoto and Japanese strategy looks solid until you've remember, that US did exactly what Japanese expected - they've attacked before they achieved superiority over Japan.

2. Attempt to distinguish between "Japanese" IJN with disregard of aircraft protection and "un-Japanese" IJA, which took care to protect its' aircraft. - In fact, both IJN and IJA walked in step regarding aircraft protection.

3. "By late 1941 the Japanese had four fleet carriers available, along with one escort and
two light carriers, with a total capacity of 378 operational aircraft.19 She had five fleet
carriers, two light carriers and two escort carriers either under construction or
conversion, or undergoing final workups, which meant an additional capacity of 406
aircraft."
No comments - just find any databook about IJN to find out the correct numbers.

4."GP Bombs v. Capital Ships
The Type 99 No. 25 model 1 Ordinary 250kg general purpose (GP) bomb carried by the D3A Val dive-bomber was designed to attack unarmored ships.
..."
Zimm has no idea, that "Ordinary" IJN bomb is equivalent to "Semi armor-piercing" US bomb and NOT "General purpose" bomb. As a result, all his conclusions and surprises on "why IJN hasn't developed small AP bombs" are simply incorrect.
Believe it or not, there is an drawing of this SAP bomb in his book with technical data, that includes armor penetration.

5. Number of planes on Kido Butai CVs are given wrong and does not reflect normal complement of the CVs (contrary to the author's statement).

6. IJN carrier doctrine - pure fantasy without a single source on topic.

7. "The Japanese fighters were considered offensive weapons, not defensive, in the sense that they were expected to range out and attack the enemy, not sit back in a defensive role as escorts or CAP."
Any good source on P-H operation will tell you, that this was not the case - fighters were used both as attackers, escorts and CAP.

8. "The standard was to have each multi-seat carrier aircraft carry an HF set and a radiotelephone, and each fighter carry a radiotelephone, by December 1941. All the aircraft of the Kido Butai may not yet have been fitted in time for the attack"
Bold statement without a single source.

9. Fuchida's attack on USS "Maryland". On one page Zimm claims, that Fuchida failed to hit this ship, on other pages he agrees with Fuchida's claim (which is correct, BTW).

10. "Level Bombers’ Attack
...
All ten formations lined up to pass over the targets one formation at a time. Even though they initiated their attack only minutes after the first torpedoes hit the water, they were surprised by a heavy volume of AA fire."
This statement contradicts with both Fuchida's statements (though he made a lot of different statements) and with reports from US ships.

11. "Level of Effort Against Nevada
...
Egusa’s decision to use dive-bombers to attack Nevada was an inappropriate weapon-target match. The 250kg GP bomb was not a battleship killer."
Indeed. But what if we don't have better bombs? - Shall we leave enemy battleship undamaged?

And the last, but not least, I can regularly attempts on "Monday morning quarterbacking" in his book. Indeed, now we can easily see Japanese mistakes - but how about than?

Of course, those mistakes doesn't mean, that the book, as a whole, is useless for P-H researcher.
First of all, Zimm's attempt to use modern methods of operation analysis in regard to P-H operation is praiseworthy and I really want to see similar analysis of other Pacific battles.
Second, his presentation of data is very "no-nonsense" and could be useful to every P-H researcher.
Third, he brings reader's attention to details, that weren't mentioned by previous writers.

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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#206

Post by Eugen Pinak » 19 Sep 2014, 21:42

glenn239 wrote:
Eugen Pinak wrote: Of course...
....I haven't passed judgement on Zimm. That cannot be done without reading getting the book and reading it several times and absorbing it. In all I've read about Zimm so far on the net, the only reservation I have is that I wondered if the alternative attack methods could be pulled off.
Really? If "Zimm - that's the author whose never set foot in a B5N2, never participated in a single carrier mission, but still thought he knew how to introduce micro-management techniques into the Pearl Harbor attack? " is not a judgement, than I don't know, what judgement is.
And the fact, that you refuse to read Zimm's book before "real" book on P-H by Wenger will be published, is not a judgement at all ;)

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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#207

Post by OpanaPointer » 20 Sep 2014, 03:37

Eugen Pinak wrote:OK, guys - here is what I've noticed:

1. Bashing of Yamamoto and Japanese strategy looks solid until you've remember, that US did exactly what Japanese expected - they've attacked before they achieved superiority over Japan.
I'm having a hard time parsing this out. Which attack(s) are you talking about?
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#208

Post by Eugen Pinak » 20 Sep 2014, 13:52

I am talking about US offensive at Solomones in 1942.

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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#209

Post by OpanaPointer » 20 Sep 2014, 14:18

Eugen Pinak wrote:I am talking about US offensive at Solomones in 1942.
Okay, but I'm still vague on "exactly what the Japanese expected". I doubt they thought the US would attack what would be called "Henderson Field", otherwise they would have protected it more.
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

#210

Post by Eugen Pinak » 20 Sep 2014, 15:12

Nobody arguing, that Japanese haven't expected US landing on Guadalcanal.
My argument was, that Zimm's statement, that Japanese were foolish to expect US offensive before US will gather superior forces, is incorrect - US did exactly what Japanese expected. Of course, Japanese reaction to US offensive was contrary to both logic and their doctrine, but that's another story.

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