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Siam (Thailand)

Discussions on all aspects of the Japanese Empire, from the capture of Taiwan until the end of the Second World War.
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Siam (Thailand)

Postby Placid Lake on 08 Jul 2007 11:53

I think that Thailand (Siam) should be included in the list of AXIS nations on this forum. Like Finland they were a co-belligerent and as such sided with the AXIS. With the exception of the conflict with Indo-China, Thai soldiers did little fighting. That said, regardless of choice, they were certainly on the side of Japan.

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Postby stulev on 08 Jul 2007 15:01

But they did occupy parts of northern Malaya!

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Postby King Maker on 09 Jul 2007 02:42


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Postby Doudou on 09 Jul 2007 09:25

I agree with Placid Lake. I have lot's of elements on thai armed forces to help if needed... I think too that Thailand should be included in the list of AXIS nations on this forum and should be include in the axis history factbook.

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Postby Peter H on 09 Jul 2007 10:25

While Thailand was an ally of Japan,the US(and later United Nations) viewed it as a co-belligerent.I think we should stick to this view for the historical record.

It must be remembered that Thai forces did fire upon Japanese forces in 1941.Tsuji's so called "comic opera" operation in southern Thailand on the 8th December even allowed for Japanese advance guards to be in Thai uniform as a deceptive ploy.

The fate of the Japanese Major Take-no-Uchi Hidesaburo as well:

viewtopic.php?t=109571

I think allowance was made in Washington for the 'forced' nature of Thailand being in the Japanese camp.

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Postby Doudou on 09 Jul 2007 11:22

Forced Alliance? Don't forget that Thailand what a pro-fascist and pro-japanese regime with archi-fascist leaders like general Prayoon (chief of the thai version of the Hitlerjugend, called Yuwachon) or Admiral Sindhu... The Thai resistance against Japanese on 8th december 1941 was symbolic. It's not the case concerning the French Thai war and the participation of the Thai army in the invasion of Malaysia and the heavy fighting between the RTAF and the USAF in the sky of Thailand between 1943 and 1945. Thailand first objective in WW2 was to recover his "lost territories" (taken by France and Great Britain at the end of the XIXth century) and saw Japan as the lonely country able and agree to help Pibul's war objectives.
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Postby Peter H on 09 Jul 2007 11:58

stulev wrote:But they did occupy parts of northern Malaya!


Can you elaborate on this?

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Postby TRose on 09 Jul 2007 12:24

I'm with including Thailand as an axis country. First they did go to war on their own with Vichy France on their own in 1940 to recover some lost provinces. And as far as being forced to ally with Japan, , it could be argued that most minor axis countries where forced to ally with the axis to some extent

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Postby major grubert on 09 Jul 2007 17:30

A few unimportant things I’d like to point out:

1. The Phibun regime was hardly pro-Japanese. In fact, it was pro-Thai – Phibun was one extremely fickle man who acted according to his perception of national and personal interest (not that there’s any real distinction between the two). If you’d bother to read up on the crucial months of 1941 you’d find the Janus-like Phibun doing his best to court the Allies in an attempt to ward off the impending Japanese invasion while at the same time preparing to lay the groundwork for a move into the Japanese camp (should it become necessary). For example, on in early December he made an impassioned argument to win support for cooperation with Japan, while on the following day he declared with the same amount of conviction his rejection of Japanese pan-Asianism.

2. Remember that in those days Fascism was very much in vogue. The leaders of the three independent nations of Asia – China, Japan, and Thailand – admired national socialism and its capability to foster the discipline needed to rapidly modernise and strengthen their countries.
Prayoon may have been half-German and leader of the Yuwachon, but it should also be remembered that the man had very little political clout (he was after all rescued from the political wilderness following the conservatives’ debacle in the early ‘30s because Phibun wanted to use him for liaison with the Germans). His advocacy for cooperation only furthered his political isolation. Phibun’s deputy – and therefore the second most powerful man in the army that formed the basis of his power – was General Mangkorn, who even though he headed the 1940 goodwill mission to Tokyo was viewed with suspicion by the Japanese and whose elevation to the post of defence minister was applauded by the British and American.
Sin of course had always been enthusiastic when it came to dealings with the Japanese ever since the Thai naval procurement mission of 1935. This was a result of the IJN’s willingness to assist his service, which had always played second fiddle to its rival, the army. His enthusiasm however was reduced considerably as the war progressed.

3. Thailand’s first objective was to ride out the storm, not to regain her lost territories. Phibun’s first objective was to ride out the storm and to stay in power. Allying with the Japanese was not done out of any ideological fervour; it a necessity that spared Thailand destruction. Expanding the kingdom’s borders was simply an added bonus for being on the “winning” side of the war, and was probably seen by the ever opportunistic Phu Nam as a cheap way to increase his personal prestige.

4. In Phibun’s absence the armed forces’ standing orders were to resist any invaders. The fighting against the Japanese on December 8 was no symbolic act to save face; it was the rational thing to do (especially for a population that’s been constantly exhorted to defend their nation’s sovereignty by the regime’s remarkably effective propaganda machine). No different from what the Dutch, Danes, Belgians and Norwegians did in 1940.

5. From mid December 1941 to March 1942 Thailand considered joining the Axis alliance, mainly because many in the country’s leadership felt that the alliance with Japan and the declaration of war on Britain and the US had not sufficiently boosted Thailand’s standing in Axis circles. Such a move however was discouraged by the Japanese, who feared that this would undermine their right of leadership in the Asian sphere.

6. The Thai-Japanese alliance was no smooth affair. The two countries bickered often over such issues as the management of the local Chinese community, the disposition of Allied property in Thailand, as well as various economic matters. Phibun’s refusal to attend the Greater East Asian Conference as well as the Thai government’s half-hearted recognition of the Wang Ching-wei government too did nothing to endear them to the Japanese.

As a matter of fact, clashes between Thai and Japanese troops occurred in December 1942 and again in July 1944.

7. Pridi refused to sign the Thai declaration of war; the absence of his signature allowed the post-war government to rescind it. So one could argue that Thailand was never legally at war with the Allies... but just keep in mind that Phibun's government did actively support Japanese military operations.

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Postby major grubert on 09 Jul 2007 17:48

Can you elaborate on this?


In 1909 Siam ceded the four northern Malay states (Perlis, Kelantan, Trengganu, and Kedah) to the British. These the Japanese handed back in 1943.

The army's 18th Mixed (there was a battalion of marines) Brigade was the main occupational force; the last military governor of Siamese Malaya was Lt. Gen. Luang Phairirayordet.

Here's the explanation Tojo gave at the Imperial Conference of May 31, 1943:
In policy toward Thailand we are upholding its dignity as an independent state and giving guidance to induce positive accord on cooperation in the war. Due to the enemy strategy of seizing upon the people's lack of freedom due to the pro-Japanese policy of the Phibun regime, the presence of the Japanese army, and the activities of anti-government bad elements, feelings toward Japan are certainly not satisfactory. Because of the troubled position of the Pibun regime and the psychological tendencies of the people, based upon the Japanese-Thai alliance, we will return lost territories in Malaya from the area we have occupied.

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Postby Peter H on 10 Jul 2007 02:44

Thanks for the interesting and informative posts.

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Re: Siam (Thailand)

Postby Dr Rare on 19 Dec 2008 03:43

Although i realize this is an old thread rather than starting a new one I have a related question.

I wondered if anyone could inform me what Thai/Siam Cavalry uniforms looked like in the Franco Thai war of 1941 and in WW2. Descriptions & or pics appreciated.

I searched the forum and followed links but could find little info on the cavalry ,i would like to know if the Thai cavalry wore Adrian helmets or not?Which i have been unable to confirm.

Thanks

sorry if incorrectly posted

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Re: Siam (Thailand)

Postby Wisarut on 11 Apr 2012 19:11

^^^
Image
Sadly, even Cavalry center at Fort Adisorn gives me no clue
Even at National Memorial still give no clue

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Re: Siam (Thailand)

Postby Heims on 23 Jun 2012 16:49

Legally was Thailand in a state of war with the US and the UK?

My understanding is that they were at war.

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