Kriegsmarine observers aboard Zuikaku

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Peter H
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Kriegsmarine observers aboard Zuikaku

#1

Post by Peter H » 11 Oct 2010, 06:46

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=4 ... ntry424727

Poster JSlavick:
With the help of another researcher, this mention of Kriegsmarine men serving aboard a aircraft carrier in the logs is confirmed. He referenced and pointed me to material that confirms three Germans did board an IJN Carrier! In late May 1943. Kapitänleutnant Hoppe, Oberleutnant zur See Schrein and Matrosengefreiter Rudolf (interpreter) did spend two weeks aboard the Japanese aircraft carrier ZUIKAKU to gather information about carrier operations. They were planning on sailing with the carrier but, the Japanese plans got all thrown out of whack by the American ambush of Admiral Yamamoto. The Germans watched the training regime and a large naval air exercise and then returned to shore duties in Japan.

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Re: Kriegsmarine observers aboard Zuikaku

#2

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 11 Oct 2010, 23:07

I'd think that by 1943 any German military personnel in Japan must have been getting a bit bored or frustrated. Any excuse to get out and do something.


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Sewer King
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Re: Kriegsmarine observers aboard Zuikaku

#3

Post by Sewer King » 12 Oct 2010, 06:19

It would seem that the loss of Attu had more to do with Zuikaku not going to sea, although the public admission of Admiral Yamamoto's death in April did occur late that May.

From Combinedfleet.com's Tabular Record of movement for Zuikaku, May 43:
3 May 1943:
Depart Truk for homeland with ZUIHO, convoyed by YUKIKAZE.

8 May 1943:
Arrive at Yokosuka.

21 May:
Departs Kure for Yokosuka in response to the 12 May U.S. invasion of Attu in the Aleutians.

25 May:
Departs Yokosuka for Kisarazu. Joins sister SHOKAKU, cruisers AGANO and OYODO. Other units massing in region as well eventually include CruDiv 7 MOGAMI, KUMANO, SUZUYA from Tokuyama; BatDiv 1's MUSASHI, Bat Div 3: KONGO, HARUNA, CarDiv 2: JUNYO, HIYO, CruDiv 8: TONE, CHIKUMA, all from Truk. Before force could sail to Aleutians, Attu fell to U.S. forces.

29 May 1943:
Returns to Yokosuka.

31 May 1943:
Departs Yokosuka for Kure with SHOKAKU.

2 June 1943:
Returned to Kure.
================================

Back home in Germany, construction of carrier Graf Zeppelin had slowly resumed in May 1942 after it was halted in mid-1940. However, little further progress was actually made before it lagged again by early 1943, effectively never to resume again through the war.
  • (Chesneau, Roger. Aircraft Carriers of the World, 1914 to the Present: an Illustrated Encyclopedia revised edition (Naval Institute Press, 1993), pages 76-77)
If it is true that two German naval attaches were to sail with Zuikaku:
  • They would probably not have known that construction of Graf Zeppelin had begun to languish again just then. So whatever orders or expectations they already had, to report all they could about their ally's carrier operations, might still have stood through that time. In the matter of carrier warfare, everyone would have been aware that Germany was the latecoming student and Japan the acknowledged master.

    In the broad sense, both Axis allies still held hope at the time that victory was still in reach, if not around the next corner. So the date of May 1943 might not seem too late for a few German naval officers to be learning about Japanese carriers -- at least, from their remote viewpoint.

    As a matter of course, would the German officers not have been told that Zuikaku was slated to join a task force for the Aleutians? Until, maybe, they were actually at sea?
-- Alan

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Ironmachine
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Re: Kriegsmarine observers aboard Zuikaku

#4

Post by Ironmachine » 12 Oct 2010, 08:05

With the help of another researcher, this mention of Kriegsmarine men serving aboard a aircraft carrier in the logs is confirmed. He referenced and pointed me to material that confirms three Germans did board an IJN Carrier!
Probably he is talking about this:
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... p?t=465748
that includes a quote from Konrad Hoppe in 50 Jahre Crew 35 and photographs.
Regards.

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Peter H
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Re: Kriegsmarine observers aboard Zuikaku

#5

Post by Peter H » 12 Oct 2010, 12:41

Here's the pics from that link if anybody can't see them.
Attachments
hoppeonryujo.jpg
hoppeonryujo.jpg (115.61 KiB) Viewed 1508 times
Hoppe.jpg
Hoppe.jpg (192.84 KiB) Viewed 1508 times

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Sewer King
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Re: Kriegsmarine observers aboard Zuikaku

#6

Post by Sewer King » 15 Oct 2010, 05:57

Where or what is the background of the second photo? Although the deck looks planked, the bolted bulkhead slopes upward. Could it be on board Ryuho or even Zuikaku?

=================================

Naval aviators would have been best as attaches observing an ally's carrier operations, but didn't the Kriegsmarine have few or none of them? It would be interesting to read more of what the Germans actually reported about IJN carriers, however little it availed them.

By 1943 Germany's concepts of carrier warfare in the Atlantic were already eclipsed by their own U-boat campaigns -- in emphasis, funding, construction, and basing, as much as effectiveness. In this, hadn't the Kriegsmarine's long-range Z Plan to build two carriers started with different assumptions than the war bore out?
  • That is why I wonder how much the Germans could have usefully learned about carriers, entirely apart from the desultory progress in actually building one. The Japanese had already coordinated all the supporting surface and supply fleet that carriers require, and used them in strategic offensives against land and sea targets. In contrast, didn't the Germans (Admiral Erick Raeder in particular) looked to carriers as air cover for their raider auxiliaries, blockade runners etc?
If so, maybe the attaches would have limited their observations to the technical matters of shipboard air operations?

-- Alan

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Re: Kriegsmarine observers aboard Zuikaku

#7

Post by OldBill » 02 Jun 2013, 23:38

"Where or what is the background of the second photo? Although the deck looks planked, the bolted bulkhead slopes upward. Could it be on board Ryuho or even Zuikaku?"

How did the flight deck elevators work on Ryuho or Zuikaku? Did they raise straight upward without a hinged cover (as in US elevators) or did they work like Bearn's, ie, an elevator with a pair of doors that hinged upward?

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Re: Kriegsmarine observers aboard Zuikaku

#8

Post by ijnfleetadmiral » 03 Jun 2013, 07:49

It's a long shot, but the second pic might have been taken on the flight deck, with a crash barrier in the background.
MSG, MS State Guard (Ret.) - First Always!

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Re: Kriegsmarine observers aboard Zuikaku

#9

Post by LWD » 03 Jun 2013, 14:52

I've seen some very impressive photo interp work done over on the IJN subforum of J-aircraft. You might consider posting this over there and asking.

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