Koreans & Taiwanese in the Imperial Army

Discussions on all aspects of the Japanese Empire, from the capture of Taiwan until the end of the Second World War.
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Windward
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#16

Post by Windward » 07 Aug 2003, 18:47

Hi GLADIVM! Yes, it's a political marriage. Three formidable ancient Chinese Dynasties (Han, Tang and Ching) use political marriages with Huns, Turks and Mogols, skilled as Japanese and European kings. But it seems some strange that when the Chinese regime were weak and more Han-ethnical as Song and Ming Dynasty, they seldom use political marriages on the contrary.

It's some off topic but I think might be interesting to talk something about the succession of Chinese throne.

The seventh emperor of Qing Dynasty(Ching Dynasty), Emperor Dao Guang (Tao Kuang), had many sons. The fourth (but the eldest alive) son became Emperor Xian Feng (Hsien Feng) in 1851. Xian Feng had only one son, who became Emperor Tong Zhi (Tung Chih) in 1862, and died in 1874 at the age of 17. He had no children. So his mother the Empress Dowager Ci Xi chose a baby called Zai Tian, elder son of Dao Guang's seventh son Prince Chun, nephew of Xian Feng and cousin of Tong Zhi, as Emperor Guang Xu(Kuang Hsu). Guang Xu had no child too, and Empress Ci Xi chose the elder son of Guang Xu's brother Zai Feng, Prince Chun II, as the twelfth and the last emperor of the Qing Dynasty in 1907. This poor little boy (3 years old only) was Puyi, Emperor Xuan Tong (Hsuen Tung), and his father Zai Feng, Prince Chun II, became regent prince.

Puyi was not regarded as son of Zai Feng, but son of Tong Zhi and grandson of Xian Feng, the Empress' husband (as his uncle Guang Xu was regarded as son of Emperor Xian Feng). This is the so called "Zhengtong", the legitimacy of Chinese throne.

But the succession of Manchiukou (Manchuria) was some different. It based on the Japanese Royal Succession Law. So when Japanese knew Puyi would never had any children, they even felt a little lucky. It's unwise to order Puyi to divorce from his empress Wan Rong and marry a Japanese noble girl to him (they also knew it's useless). But they could order or suggest his brother Pu Jie to do this.

Another thing to be pointed out was, because the Japanese Royal Code forbidded Japanese Princess to be maried outside Japan, so it's impossible to marry a royal princess to Pu Jie and went to Manchuria with him (Korea was regarded as territory of Japan so Rhee Jin's marriage was some different). Pu Jie's wife Hiroshi was daughter of a Japanese marquis whose remote ancestors had royal blood too. And Hiroshi's grandmother (her father's mother) was daughter of Nakayama, who was brother of Emperor Meiji's mother. As grandson of Emperor Meiji, Emperor Showa (Hirohito was his name and was more famous) had remote kindred with lady Hiroshi.

Because Pu Jie had only two daughters, the direct kindred to the Chinese throne(as the Salic Law) seems to be terminited. But Pu Jie had a young brother Pu Ren, and so was regent prince Zai Feng, or Tong Zhi and Guang Xu. The sixth son of Dao Guang, prince Gong, was more clever and sharp than his older and younger borthers, that's why dowager Ci Xi didn't choose him or his sons to be emperor. All the people I mentioned had their male heirs till now. Some in the US and Japan, some in Taiwan, and most of them still living in China. Pu Yi appointed his heir for the throne in Chinese prison too. His heir is a son of his second cousin, mr Yu Yan. If I may say, this guy (still living) is the legal heir of Chinese throne, or the leader of the Aisin Gioro family (former royal family of Qing Dynasty) at least.

Regards! :)

Jasen
Last edited by Windward on 08 Aug 2003, 04:37, edited 1 time in total.

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#17

Post by Gott » 07 Aug 2003, 19:24

Windward, your knowledge of Chinese history intrigues me... I'm curious, are you Chinese?

Tang Dynasty frequently used political marriages. Tang princesses were often sent off to become wives to leaders of various foreign tribes. This was Tang Dynasty's way to ensure the barbarians won't attack the Chinese landmass, and indeed the dynasty's relations with foreign tribes were relatively well and internal problems constituted the Tang Dynasty's downfall.


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#18

Post by Windward » 08 Aug 2003, 04:40

Hi Gott,

Yes. I'm 3/4 Chinese and 1/4 Manchu. You can see my self introduction in the thread "Introduce yourself" in the Lounge. :)

On the other hand, I have few information about Taiwanese served in the Japanese army. And Rhee Jin's story was peculiar. Though Korean royal family was member of Japanese royal family after the annex in 1910, most Koreans were regarded as second or third class citizen of the Japanese Empire. Racism was a common attitude among Japanese people before 1945. Not only people of Ryukyo, Taiwan and Korea were discriminated, but also the Ainus and Japanese immigrations went abroad to South America. Some snobbish, immigrations to West Europe, Canada, US or Australia were regarded "first class" as the native Japanese, for example the famous "Tokyo Rose" and other niseis. I guess it's mostly because the immigrations to South America were poor peasants and those who went to US or West Europe were richer before or after their emigration.

Regards!

Jasen

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#19

Post by GLADIVM » 08 Aug 2003, 07:39

Dear Windward ,

Thanks very much for all these insight in the Chinese throne succession .

Would you know what happened to Hiroshi and her daughters ?
Did they disappear as Johnston wrote or were left alone to pursue their lives ?
Unfortunatley the book is not more in my hands , got lost in one of my many moves but I am quite sure that Johnston mentioned a male heir , of course Johnston was never in Manchiukuo so he might have got it wrong .

I did not know Johnston to be an homosexual , of course he did not mention this in his book , but from his runnung battle with the Eunuchs he gave the impression to condemn homosexuality . Considering the times when he wrote his book this is not surprising and he would have not publicized this aspect of his personality .
How did you get to know this ? If A may ask

Also Wan Rong disappeared after Soviet invasion but in view of her addiction and poor health this is not surprising .
Have you any infos about her fate ?

Regarding Pu Yi life after the war , I know that he was granted an early release because PRC government wanted to appease the Manchiu tribes and be sure of their loyalty during the Korean War , but the rationale of marrying Pu Yi to a chinese commoner escapes me , What did Zhou hope to gain if Pu Yi would have been able to sire an heir ??

As your knowlegde on the subject is quite impressive , I would like to ask one more thing , how about Pu Yi death ? In Taiwan for long time is was rumored that he did not die quietly in his bed as suggested by the PRC propaganda
but was instead marched through the streets and beaten to death during the Cultural revolution .
Thre is any truth to it ?? Of course the KMT governmente in the 60's & 70's always portrayed PRC as evil so what they said must be taken with caution .

I know we are off topic but as the purpose of the forum is to share members knowledge I am sure the moderator will not mind for us to pursue this subject .

Yours

GLADIVM

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#20

Post by Windward » 08 Aug 2003, 11:33

Hiroshi and her younger daughter (the elder one was in Japan with Hiroshi's parents) escaped from Shin King, Manchurian capital on Aug 12 1945, went to Tong Hua, a small montane city near Korean border, with other Japanese and Manchurian eminent officers and their relations. After Japan's surrender, Hiroshi , her children and Wan Rong(she became a hype of opium in the 1930s and was almost crackbrained in 1945) stayed there in Tong Hua, and their husbands were arrested by the soviet red army. Chinese communist army impounded them and brought them to Changchun (former Shin King)in April 1946. After some inquests they were released. But Japanese women could hardly living in the postwar Manchuria. The civil war of China broke there soon. They were transfered to north Manchuria when communists withdrawed in June. Empress Wan Rong died alone of opiumism in the winter 1946, buried in an unmarked grave.

Hiroshi and her young daughter were released in Harbin, and she decided went back to Japan, as other millions of Japanese refugees in Manchuria. She and her daughter joined a group of armed refugees, arrived at Huludao, a small port where Japanese refugees appointed aboard the refugee ships. But some KMT officers identified her, sent Hiroshi and her child to Pekin(Beijing). In Pekin the regent prince Zai Feng visited his daughter-in-law secretly. Then Hiroshi was transfered to Shanghai, where she was house arrested and indicted as a war criminal, though communists considered she was an innocent person. But she escaped with help from Japanese immigrants and aboard the last refugee ship incognito. She and her younger girl arrived at Sasebo on Jan 10 1947. Then she and her two daughters stayed there. Her elder daughter was murdered by her lover and classmate in 1957.

Hiroshi and the younger daughter went back to mainland China in 1961 to visit Pu Jie. hiroshi decided stay in Beijing and got nice treatment from the communists. She and her husband were protected by the order of Zhou in the Culture Revolution. After China and Japan established their diplomatic relations in 1972, Pu Jie and Hiroshi visited Japan in 1974. Hiroshi died in 1987 and Pu Jie died in 1994. Their younger daughter and her children still living in Japan now.

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#21

Post by Windward » 08 Aug 2003, 11:40

If Pu Yi had a male heir, then communist propagandist could declair the heir of the Qing throne and Aisin Gioro family is a pure Chinese. Zhou afraid a Japanese claim about their legitimacy whether to the uncrowned throne or to the Aisin family. He didn't worry about the present days but worried about decades or centuries in the future. But Zhou worried unnecessarily. Chinese succession custom is some alike the Salic Law.

About Johnston's story of homosexual, my words might be ambiguous, it's more a possibility than a proved reality. A Chinese biographer of Pu Yi and Pu Jie whose name is Jia Ying Hua made some textual research in Edinburgh, hometown of Johnston, and he said this possibility in his book "Revelation of the last marriage of the last Chinese Emperor", ISBN 7-5014-2463-2 and he said it should be confirmed by more evidence. Some Chinese historians argued with him but they have not evidence to deny Jia's opinion. But Pu Yi was a homosexula obviously, whether by the inquest documents or Manchu nobles' remembrance.

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#22

Post by Windward » 08 Aug 2003, 11:42

GLADIVM wrote:As your knowlegde on the subject is quite impressive , I would like to ask one more thing , how about Pu Yi death ? In Taiwan for long time is was rumored that he did not die quietly in his bed as suggested by the PRC propaganda but was instead marched through the streets and beaten to death during the Cultural revolution .
Pu Yi died in 1967, for the reason of nephritic cancer and uraemia. He died in a hospital. The date as I remembered was Oct 17 1967, afternoon. My Manchu grandma told me that the clean autumn sky of Beijing became dark and dirty on that afternoon. It's a sandstorm from Mongolia, common in spring but unusual in autumn. Many native old men of Beijing talked about the strange sky and guessed that the last emperor of the ill-fated old China might be dead. The last imperial dragon went back to his land beyond the sky.

He was annoyed by some young radical guys, but never be beaten as Taiwanese said. On the other hand, his illness should be cured by some famous doctors as Premier Zhou suggested, and he might live two or three more years. But because of the political atmosphere, those famous doctors were even hard to protect themselves in the red storm, so Pu Yi's illness got worse. He didn't died quietly but suffered from his illness, not from the mobs.

By the way, communists showed their mercy to their former enmies in the Culture Revolution, whether KMT or Manchurian, but behaved very cruel to their own comrades. Premier Zhou protected most of them. That's why he was respected widely all over China. I know this because the story of my great grandfather, my mother's mother's father, who was a idealist high rank KMT officer, lieutenant general and chief of staff of the Nankin Capital Garrison. He was counterespionaged by communists in 1949, and was protected in the Cutural Revolution too. He died in 1994, the same year Pu Jie died, at the age of 93.

Regards!

Jasen

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#23

Post by GLADIVM » 11 Aug 2003, 05:38

Windward ,

Thanks very much for taking the time to answer all my questions .

Yours


GLADIVM

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#24

Post by GLADIVM » 14 Aug 2003, 09:03

Dear Windward .

I read a book " Wild Swan " which recounts the story of three generations of females in a chinese family and during the war they were living in Manchiukuo and it seems that life there was very miserable and that Manchus and Han's alike were treated very badly by the Japanese , food was scarce and even teachers in primary schools were japanese and treated the chinese pupils very bad . And of course there is the question of the deadly chemical experiments carried out by the Japanese on the local population


There was any real popular support for the Manchiukuo state ?

And how is viewed Pu Yi today by Manchu's people ?



Yours



GLADIVM

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#25

Post by Windward » 15 Aug 2003, 09:43

Hi GLADIVM,

Yes, life was difficult for common people in Manchuria. Not only for Chinese, but also Japanese immigrations, though they could live a little better than local people.

Manchurian civilians of Chinese origin were mostly immigration and their descendant from inland China, and their ancestors were poor lackland peasants from Hebei and Shandong province. So they coule be satisfied easily in the wild underpopulated Manchuria. Their life was even worse in their homeland. Remember this. It's a common feeling among Manchurian people. So they obey authorities and governments, whether the government belonged to Japanese, Chinese or Russian(as in North Manchuria). Most of them could sit down under the Japanese rule, as they could bear Chinese warlords' rule before 1929. But it's not equal to popular support. They paid taxes, sold their harvest to the government cheaply, some peasants' land were purchased at low price by requisition, so few people love Japanese and their Manchurian collaboraters. But only a few Manchurian rose up. Most of them were communist partisans lead by commissar from inland China.

Even in the 14 years of Manchiukuo state, Manchuria was still regarded as a paradise by inland Chinese peasants. Japanese improved public utility, built schools, hospitals, factories, railroads, mines and power dams in Manchuria. And consider the land area is almost total of France and Germany but the population was only 30 million, Manchuria was still an unpopulated nation during the WW2. Labors and workers were urgent needed. Japanese never stop Chinese immigration from inland China. I said Japanese were racism people, but they behaved it unofficially. Chinese patients (who can afford the fee) were treated well by Japanese doctors and nurses in Japanese hospitals (as SMR series hospitals in major Manchurian cities, SMR=South Manchurian Railroads, the largest Konzern and quasi-official Japanese colony department in Manchuria). And yes, Japanese teachers treated the Chinese pupils very bad, but so did they with Japanese pupils. It's their ethical custom. PS, the bio and chemical experiments were experimentized on state prisoners and communist POWs, not only Chinese, but also Korean, Mongol and Russian agents.

Till 1946, more than 4/5 railroads and 90% industrial production values of China were in Manchuria. And I noticed some special mood among Dongbei ("Northeast", the offical call of Manchuria) people in recent years. That's a reminiscent mood of the Manchurian period. In the 50 years of PRC, Manchuria was regarded as a cow, communists milking her but never feed her. They force Manchuria produce oil, iron and steel, coal, aluminium, magnesium, gold, diamond, lumber, fur, corn, soybean, rice, meat and animals as much as possible. The requisition was cheap or never paid. Especially after the 1960s, Manchuria was planed to give up during the possible Sino-Russian war. So few money spent on industrial renewal or city planning in Manchuria. Today this poor cow is almost dead. Its unemployment number is the highest in China. So local people recall the Manchiukuo era, especially old people. They could compare their life nowadays with 60 years before.

Regards!

windward

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#26

Post by Windward » 15 Aug 2003, 09:53

GLADIVM wrote:And how is viewed Pu Yi today by Manchu's people ?
As the last emperor of great Ching empire.

Few Manchu people regard him as an indeed traitor, but only a woefully puppet controled by Japanese.

Best Regards!

windward

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#27

Post by Gott » 15 Aug 2003, 14:36

Windward, thanks for the info on Manchuria, and the weird thing is that my mother's friend is the daughter of the former governor of Jilin and Heilongjiang.

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#28

Post by acedguy » 01 Sep 2004, 06:24

Lee eun-the head commander of the Osaka 1st airforce division-his grade was lieutenant general of airforce.

Image


Hong sa ik-the head of southward munitions headquarter-his grade was lieutenant general of army.(A-rated war criminal)


Image

Park ku sung-(Togo heiachiro)-the ministry of foreign affairs of Tojo cabinet(A-rated war criminal)

Image

and some other revelaed high ranked Korean officers are

Kim jong ryol-the brigadier general of airforce
Lee keum woo-the colonel of army
Kim seok won-the major general and chief staff officer of Kaneyama

Usually the Koreans who served for Japanese military during the WWII mind revealing their past record..so its very difficult to know them all.

But its true that there were many Koreans served for Japanese military during the war.

*sorry for my poor English* -I apologize.. m-_-m

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#29

Post by chino » 02 Sep 2004, 11:10

A lot of Chinese in China also served in Japanese uniforms. Some reached officer status. They mostly served in Manchuria. I could check it up but I think they're called the Manchukou Army or something.

My dad was conscripted into the Jap army during their occupation of Singapore. It was not a choice. The Japs rounded up ethnic Chinese young men and most of them they shot on suspicion of being anti-jap.

My late father said the selection was simple. They looked at your fingers. If you had thick fingers that look like they have seen hard labour, you were spared. Those with long slender fingers i.e. intellectual-looking, were shot.

In the Jap army they had a Taiwanese instructor. His job was to teach the local recruits the Japanese language.

My dad served in the naval base at Sembawang and helped carry ammunition to the anti-aircraft guns during Allied air raids.

Later on, he served on board coastal patrol crafts.

There were also locals serving in the Japanese-led civilian police force. My dad said fist fights would frequently break out between them the local police as both groups vie to extort money from vice and gambling dens.

I never believed a word of this when I was a kid. But one day, when I was much older, some Japanese tourists asked him for directions and to my surprise, he spoke fluent Japanese to them. My dad is otherwise completely uneducated.

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#30

Post by Windward » 04 Sep 2004, 18:19

acedguy wrote:Park ku sung-(Togo heiachiro)-the ministry of foreign affairs of Tojo cabinet(A-rated war criminal)
Image
But... but his family had settled in Japan for more than three centuries... could he still be regarded as a Korean?

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