Japanese ships trapped overseas in Dec.1941?

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bertamingo
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Japanese ships trapped overseas in Dec.1941?

#1

Post by bertamingo » 15 Jan 2016, 11:49

Hello, people :) I have read some articles on the large proportions of German and Italian ships trapped overseas when they entered ww2, most of them were either sunk or confiscated/captured, only a few were able to run the blockade. Yet, there's no articles on the status of Japanese ships trapped overseas. Any information on this subject? Particularly, were there any Japanese ships in Europe after Pearl Habor attack (i.e. exlucding the submarines arriving France from Far East)?

OpanaPointer
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Re: Japanese ships trapped overseas in Dec.1941?

#2

Post by OpanaPointer » 15 Jan 2016, 13:38

In August 1941 the Japanese ordered all their ships in the Atlantic to return home, where they would have been reassigned. Business with the US was down drastically, it wouldn't have been hard to keep their ships out of US ports after Nov. 27th, 1941. They had the advantage of knowing when the war would start. Kaishō would have pulled them back home well in advance.

You may be able to find the orders for this in the Magic documents. (www.ibiblio.org/pha/magic/)
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bertamingo
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Re: Japanese ships trapped overseas in Dec.1941?

#3

Post by bertamingo » 15 Jan 2016, 15:19

Thank you for the information, so the Japanese gov. was doing a much better job than their German and Italian counterparts in terms of recalling their merchant fleet before outbreak of war...

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Re: Japanese ships trapped overseas in Dec.1941?

#4

Post by OpanaPointer » 15 Jan 2016, 15:33

bertamingo wrote:Thank you for the information, so the Japanese gov. was doing a much better job than their German and Italian counterparts in terms of recalling their merchant fleet before outbreak of war...
Hitler didn't seem all that worried about his merchant fleet, presumably because he was intending to "live off the conquered territories", obtaining materials he needed from them. He said "I am a hero on land but a coward at sea."

The Japanese, on the other hand, were heavily dependent on resources that had to come to the Home Islands via sea routes. That meant their merchant fleet was valuable. But not so valuable as to waste warships for escorting, it seems.
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bertamingo
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Re: Japanese ships trapped overseas in Dec.1941?

#5

Post by bertamingo » 15 Jan 2016, 16:02

OpanaPointer wrote:
bertamingo wrote:Thank you for the information, so the Japanese gov. was doing a much better job than their German and Italian counterparts in terms of recalling their merchant fleet before outbreak of war...
Hitler didn't seem all that worried about his merchant fleet, presumably because he was intending to "live off the conquered territories", obtaining materials he needed from them. He said "I am a hero on land but a coward at sea."

The Japanese, on the other hand, were heavily dependent on resources that had to come to the Home Islands via sea routes. That meant their merchant fleet was valuable. But not so valuable as to waste warships for escorting, it seems.
haha that's funny :D

the IJN was more concerned about engaging enemy warships, as a result they largely ignored both allied and their own merchants at the beginning, until American subs heavily reminded them :lol:

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Re: Japanese ships trapped overseas in Dec.1941?

#6

Post by OpanaPointer » 15 Jan 2016, 16:05

The machismo of their hybrid Bushido in action there. Escorting was vital, dull, and glamorous. Hunting enemy transports was the same. So they didn't do it.
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Jerry Asher
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Re: Japanese ships trapped overseas in Dec.1941?

#7

Post by Jerry Asher » 16 Jan 2016, 03:38

Japanese officials were indeed horrified by the shipping Germany was willing to sacrifice and wished to avoid the same. The order to vacate the Atlantic was issued in July 1941 at the time of the IJA entering French Indo China. The US response, closing the Panama Canal to all Japanese ships required the ships to sail around South America, with Chilean waters and Peru being a staging areas. The US iron and oil embargo of July 1941 also terminated shipping in much of North America except for Mexico, however American pressure reduced that area as a safe haven. Of the top of my head I recall that British naval intelligence thought there was less than fourteen ships not in home Japanese waters by mid November and I think only one or two were not really under the umbrella of the IJN by December 1. In between there was a mad rush for expatriot's to get out of Singapore, the NEI, the Philippines. I have more details if needed. In sum, to answer your question Japan planned and executed a plan to avoid what they thought was a very foolish decision by the Germans. Hisashi Noma's history gives details on some of the voyages from the Atlantic and from South America.

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Re: Japanese ships trapped overseas in Dec.1941?

#8

Post by OpanaPointer » 16 Jan 2016, 03:43

I knew that if I posted the wrong date somebody would be along to set me straight. :)
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bertamingo
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Re: Japanese ships trapped overseas in Dec.1941?

#9

Post by bertamingo » 17 Jan 2016, 04:05

Jerry Asher wrote:Japanese officials were indeed horrified by the shipping Germany was willing to sacrifice and wished to avoid the same. The order to vacate the Atlantic was issued in July 1941 at the time of the IJA entering French Indo China. The US response, closing the Panama Canal to all Japanese ships required the ships to sail around South America, with Chilean waters and Peru being a staging areas. The US iron and oil embargo of July 1941 also terminated shipping in much of North America except for Mexico, however American pressure reduced that area as a safe haven. Of the top of my head I recall that British naval intelligence thought there was less than fourteen ships not in home Japanese waters by mid November and I think only one or two were not really under the umbrella of the IJN by December 1. In between there was a mad rush for expatriot's to get out of Singapore, the NEI, the Philippines. I have more details if needed. In sum, to answer your question Japan planned and executed a plan to avoid what they thought was a very foolish decision by the Germans. Hisashi Noma's history gives details on some of the voyages from the Atlantic and from South America.
Thank you for the very detailed information on Japanese merchant fleet, it explains a lot for my question :D

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Re: Japanese ships trapped overseas in Dec.1941?

#10

Post by steverodgers801 » 17 Jan 2016, 04:17

the Japanese actually ended up with a reduced shipping capacity because much of their oil sailed in foreign ships and they did not capture enough ships to make up the difference. The result was reduced imports of oil and other materials even with the capture of the NEI

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Re: Japanese ships trapped overseas in Dec.1941?

#11

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 20 Sep 2016, 03:35

OpanaPointer wrote:
bertamingo wrote:Thank you for the information, so the Japanese gov. was doing a much better job than their German and Italian counterparts in terms of recalling their merchant fleet before outbreak of war...
Hitler didn't seem all that worried about his merchant fleet, presumably because he was intending to "live off the conquered territories", obtaining materials he needed from them. He said "I am a hero on land but a coward at sea."

....
Hitler was also somewhat suprised by the British & French DoW in September 1939, & was equally nonplussed when they did not offer a cease fire after Poland was defeated. He had operated under the assumption the merchant fleet would not be much affected by the war with Poland. Worst case in his August 1939 PoV was the merchant fleet would sit idle in nuetral ports for a bit, & then business as usual before the end of the year.

Mussolini conversely went to war on the spur of the moment with no significant planning.

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Re: Japanese ships trapped overseas in Dec.1941?

#12

Post by OpanaPointer » 20 Sep 2016, 14:18

AH was going on the belief that the Allies would continue as before. He didn't realize that England and France would have had enough by then. Read the Color Books to see the Allied diplomatic traffic on this period.
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Re: Japanese ships trapped overseas in Dec.1941?

#13

Post by bertamingo » 26 Sep 2016, 08:15

Thank you all very much for the information! It's now clear why the German merchant fleet had such a tragic fate at the beginning of the war :)

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