Norwegian iron & steel production until April 9 1940

[Sid Guttridge]

Split off from this thread http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=149674


Hi Guys,

The Statistical Year-Book of the League of Nations 1940/41 contains international iron and steel production figures for the 1930s on pages 140 and 141.

According to this, 80% of iron output internationally was used in steel making.

Norway produced iron throughout the 1930s, ranging from 119,000 tons in 1931 to 191,000 tons in 1939. It thus had the basic raw material to produce nearly as much steel.

However, it did not do so. Only in 1931 is Norway shown producing 2,000 tons of steel. Thereafter it produced no steel in any of the years 1932-1938. No figures are available for 1939.

The reasons for this are not given, but it looks circumstantially as though an embryonic Norwegian steel industry may have been snuffed out by the Great Depression.

However, any Norwegian steel industry would have had to have been significantly larger than it was in 1931 to sustain a major fleet expansion.

Whether such an expansion of Norwegian steel production could have been sustained by a Government-financed fleet expansion programme during the Great Depression seems questionable, but it does seem possible that the fundamentals of such an industry may have existed at the start of the decade.

Cheers,

Sid.

[phylo_roadking]

Sid, thanks for that. For a time I was wondering - from the table of Norwegian economic outputs etc. provided by John earlier in the thread - if the amounts of steel produced had simply fallen off the scale to register on that earlier table.

The Naes material is interesting, I have never denied that (I've always had an interest in industrial archeology)...but I did indeed have reservations on how much three water driven triphammers could hammer-forge per annum. And though an accompanying rolling mill is mentioned, we don't know what this produced. Large plate could simply have been beyond its capacity. And producing armourplate could have been a step beyong its capabilities again.

The reasons for this are not given, but it looks circumstantially as though an embryonic Norwegian steel industry may have been snuffed out by the Great Depression.

However, any Norwegian steel industry would have had to have been significantly larger than it was in 1931 to sustain a major fleet expansion.

Whether such an expansion of Norwegian steel production could have been sustained by a Government-financed fleet expansion programme during the Great Depression seems questionable, but it does seem possible that the fundamentals of such an industry may have existed at the start of the decade

I don't know if this thread is the place to go deeper into the Norwegian economy, but it's worth noting that while Norway did better during the 1930s Depression than many other nations...or rather, came out of it quicker ...it suffered through the rest of the 1930s with chronic unemployment, that the various governments wrestled with in various ways, using their fast-recovering revenue (faster than in many other European countries) both paying for production capacity in fishing etc. (basically, subsidizing), and developing a modern welfare system. What the Norwegian government DID do however was enter the 1930s after two major economic crises in the 1920s - so may not have had the wherewithall to fund the establishment of an industry from (almost) scratch early enough in the decade to make a difference - and of course a big spend of that sort later in the decade would have overshadowed any other spending decisions to be made The Norwegian government's revenues recovered as the decade went on, rather than them entering the 1930's in relative prosperity.

[Juha Tompuri]

The Naes material is interesting, I have never denied that

A memory refresher from the past:

...Norway's iron and steel production capability...when it HAD no "period" smelting, rolling or forging capability I'm afraid NOW equally argues that you do NOT have any supporting information ...

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=105

Regards, Juha

[phylo_roadking]

I think we should also be refreshing these memories

The Norwegian steel production was working in the 20th century.

and -

Juha, thank you for that link. It looks a bit like the setup and history of the Ironbridge museums in Coalbrookdale in England.

Now - where would we go to find out if the hammer-forges and rolling mills were still working in the 20th century, and what the annual output was in the period under discussion...? I'm wondering, for that table John earlier provided a link to mentions totals for production of iron...and "iron and steel nails" under one title but with no breakdown - but no figure for steel.

Steel may have been produced there in the 20th century - but I think it would be important to find out if it was a few hundred tons per annum, or tens of thousands...

Now courtesy of Sid we know. Naes had a very small output, and none at all during the last nine years of the period in question.

[Juha Tompuri]

I think we should also be refreshing these memories

The Norwegian steel production was working in the 20th century.

and -

Juha, thank you for that link. It looks a bit like the setup and history of the Ironbridge museums in Coalbrookdale in England.

Now - where would we go to find out if the hammer-forges and rolling mills were still working in the 20th century, and what the annual output was in the period under discussion...? I'm wondering, for that table John earlier provided a link to mentions totals for production of iron...and "iron and steel nails" under one title but with no breakdown - but no figure for steel.

Steel may have been produced there in the 20th century - but I think it would be important to find out if it was a few hundred tons per annum, or tens of thousands...

Yes I well remember that at these cases you began to understand that what you earlier had written was...not true.

Now courtesy of Sid we know. Naes had a very small output, and none at all during the last nine years of the period in question.

Well there the locals seem disagree with the League of Nations on the production...

The smelting of iron ore in the charcoal-based blast furnace at Næs continued as long as up until 1909. The rest of the activity continued using the old equipment until the dams belonging to the iron works burst during a massive flood on Friday 13 November 1959.

http://www.museumsnett.no/jernverksmuseet/engelsk.html

...and with you on the capabilities...

...Norway's iron and steel production capability...when it HAD no "period" smelting, rolling or forging capability I'm afraid NOW equally argues that you do NOT have any supporting information ...

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=105

...and I, how many years do from 1932 to 1938 cover.

Regards, Juha

[phylo_roadking]

Yes I well remember that at these cases you began to understand that what you earlier had written was...not true

I had one opinion arising out of a set of data, you provided another which corrected me. However NOW Sid has provided a third set of information which throws one of those into question for part of the specified time period of this WI.

Well there the locals seem disagree with the League of Nations on the production...

No, what we have is a set of museum advertising who's last specific mention of steel is in the late 1800's - and a set of official production figures from the League of Nations. Which one will be vindicated should specific production figures for Naes turn up, do you think?

...and I, how many years do from 1932 to 1938 cover.

Are you making an assumption based on an absence of any League figures for 1939 that production restarted?

1932-40...looks like nine years, very nearly half of the time period specificed in the title and original post in this WI.

[Juha Tompuri]

Yes I well remember that at these cases you began to understand that what you earlier had written was...not true

I had one opinion arising out of a set of data

Opinion yes, but data?
You call Wiki a data?

...and I, how many years do from 1932 to 1938 cover.

Are you making an assumption based on an absence of any League figures for 1939 that production restarted?

Only info presented here about when the Næs steel production ended, mentions year 1959.

1932-40...looks like nine years, very nearly half of the time period specificed in the title and original post in this WI.

Could you post the source to your claim that in Norway no steel was produced 1939-40?


Regards, Juha

[phylo_roadking]

Opinion yes, but data?
You call Wiki a data?

When it's appropriate, yes. Just as you do -

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... i#p1305619

...for example.

Only info presented here about when the Næs steel production ended, mentions year 1959

However, it did not do so. Only in 1931 is Norway shown producing 2,000 tons of steel. Thereafter it produced no steel in any of the years 1932-1938. No figures are available for 1939.

Naes is in Norway. Perhaps you should be debating that lack of Norwegian steel production 1932-on with Sid...

Could you post the source to your claim that in Norway no steel was produced 1939-40?

...and I, how many years do from 1932 to 1938 cover.

Once we've dealt with the unsourced assumption made that production restarted in 1939...

[Juha Tompuri]

Opinion yes, but data?
You call Wiki a data?

When it's appropriate, yes. Just as you do -

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... i#p1305619

...for example.

One has to be very, very carefull when using Wiki, and comparing the info to other sources too, before daring to use it, and even then an apology often is appropriate: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... i#p1305619

When it's appropriate, yes.

Do you find your (as example) posted Norwegian steel production Wiki-info appropriate and did you compare it to any other sources (of course not meaning the Wiki-Wiki comparison)?

...and I how many years do from 1932 to 1938 cover.

Once we've dealt with the unsourced assumption made that production restarted in 1939...

Nope.
It's just a fact.
As at least at the moment no sources exactly mention neither the year 1939, nor 1940 steel production figures.
Do you know them?


Regards, Juha

P.S. when quoting, please no forgeries.

[phylo_roadking]

One has to be very, very carefull when using Wiki, and comparing the info to other sources too, before daring to use it,

Of course - and unfortunately I wasn't able to turn up anything when I searched for pre-war Norwegian steel production, whereas you managed to find the information on Naes.

Now, however we seem to have a League of Nations source that seems to corroborate the "lack of national steel production" comment for most of the last decade of the period under discussion.

Nope.
It's just a fact.

How is it a fact? From the comment in the museum advertising?

The League of Nations document indicates a drop in national steel production to zero after 1932, do you agree?

Do you have anything indicating that it began again in 1939? After all, that official source indicates the Naes museum advertising material is wrong in your interpretation of steel production continued unbroken to 1959. You're the one specifying the dates of "break in service" as being

"...from 1932 to 1938..."

1932-1938, so it's your job to source that 1938 was indeed the last year of no steel production.

[phylo_roadking]

Would be so kind to analyse the full paragraph as one if you insist to invent inconsistencies?

John, perhaps you would be so kind as to guide us to an English version of this so that there can be absolutely no chance of any inconsistencies, inventions or whatever? No necessarily an electronic version either, I will have no issues with setting about getting my hands on a copy as I'd like to read it anyway for my own information.

[Juha Tompuri]

One has to be very, very carefull when using Wiki, and comparing the info to other sources too, before daring to use it,

Of course - and unfortunately I wasn't able to turn up anything when I searched for pre-war Norwegian steel production, whereas you managed to find the information on Naes.

Yes, you found two Wiki sources that backed up each other.
I would think at least twice before believing in such.

Do you have anything indicating that it began again in 1939? After all, that official source indicates the Naes museum advertising material is wrong in your interpretation of steel production continued unbroken to 1959.

As no other info has been brought up, there is, as I mentioned before, at least not at the moment, presented any exact production figures from 1939 to 1940 to the end of the production, 1959.
http://www.museumsnett.no/jernverksmuseet/engelsk.html

1932-1938, so it's your job to source that 1938 was indeed the last year of no steel production.

The one who claims (first), has also the privilege to back up what he posted:

Naes had a very small output, and none at all during the last nine years of the period in question.

I have posted that there seems not be any exact data at the moment of the 1939-40 production, I think that is obvious for most of us, and already proved.
You have claimed that there was no production at that time.
Can you prove that?

Regards, Juha

[phylo_roadking]

1932-1938, so it's your job to source that 1938 was indeed the last year of no steel production.The one who claims (first), has also the privilege to back up what he posted:

Yes, Juha - that's what I'm saying, you're the one is saying the production break was 1932-38, and therefore you have the priviledge of backing that up.

[bf109 emil]

I have posted that there seems not be any exact data of the 1939-40 production, I think that is obvious for most of us, and already proved.
You have claimed that there was no production at that time.
Can you prove that?

Regards, Juha

so let me get this straight if Phylo can't prove a source for this, we are to assume Norway had a steel industry in 1939 and on? if this is the case it is new to me and if so, where where the smelters, steel producing facilities located? as it seems most of the comments here are directed towards trying to trip up the other member or at times petty!! so i ask did Norway have a steel making capability in 1939 and 1940 in so much as to build there own shipping, armaments without having to import steel plating and if so where where these plants located??

[phylo_roadking]

Jim, the case rests on this statement...

The smelting of iron ore in the charcoal-based blast furnace at Næs continued as long as up until 1909. The rest of the activity continued using the old equipment until the dams belonging to the iron works burst during a massive flood on Friday 13 November 1959. Consequently, the works' operations were finally brought to a close, and the works was shut down.

...saying that therefore steel production went on unhindered from 1909 to 1959.

However, Sid's new LoN source indicates that no steel was produced in Norway for the years 1932 to 1938, with no figures for anything being available for 1939.

What that new source does however do is contradict the mueseum page - for the rest of the activity, the

were foundries, steel mills, rolling mills,

...appear now not to have produced anything for nearly a decade of that 1909-1959 period.

The Norwegian Wiki item being referred to is this (automatic translation)

A / S Norsk Ironworks (founded July 19, 1946 in Mo i Rana, closed June 9, 1988) was a Norwegian industrial plant, approved by Parliament to make Norway more self-sufficient in steel, as well as contribute to the strengthening of the region, northern Norway.

The so-called "Iron case" applied Norway needs to ensure the addition of steel plates, after the Second World War, which proved the vulnerability of a lack of national production.

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate ... f%26sa%3DG

And that is where the discussion sits at the moment.