Buna tires

Discussions on the economic history of the nations taking part in WW2, from the recovery after the depression until the economy at war.
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Alsaceone
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Buna tires

#1

Post by Alsaceone » 18 Jul 2013, 02:36

When did the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe begin to use synthetic rubber tires for their vehicles and aircraft? I understand it was a long, drawn out process for both applications.

ChristopherPerrien
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Re: Buna tires

#2

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 18 Jul 2013, 05:32

Neoprene and the buna rubbers have been around since the 1930's. After the invasion of Poland , Germany simply had no access to natural rubber. So all of their tires were replaced by syntheads in the first years of the war..


GregSingh
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Re: Buna tires

#3

Post by GregSingh » 20 Jul 2013, 12:48

German synthetic rubber production was 40,000 tonnes in 1940 and reached 70,000 tonnes in 1941.
Still, Germany received natural rubber from India (by transit over Soviet Union territory) - 4500 tones in 1940 and 14500 tonnes in 1941.

Alsaceone
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Re: Buna tires

#4

Post by Alsaceone » 21 Jul 2013, 07:36

Greg is correct on the continued rubber supply through through the Soviet territory until the German invasion as was oil shipped by American oil companies. I don't believe a 100% synthetic tire was accepted by the Wehrmacht or the Luftwaffe especially in the early production years.
Neoprene was and still is used primarily for weather seals, carburetor diaphragms and oil resistant hoses. According to the book, Rubber Processing: Technology, Materials and Principles; Continental Gummi Werke eliminated Buna N rubber as being compatible for producing tires in 1934 and began using Buna S rubber for tires as early as the late 1930's. I believe the developmental time for an aircraft tire with Buna S would be a longer process due to the stress factor on the tire is greater during the landing of an aircraft, especially a bomber, than what most tired vehicles would endure. I would think the aircraft tire R/D would have had to completed in time for the JU 88 mass production contracts in 1939. I read a very detailed history years ago about this but can't remember the source. There may have been truck tires using Buna S during the military operations in Austria and Czechoslovakia.

ChristopherPerrien
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Re: Buna tires

#5

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 21 Jul 2013, 17:33

I stand corrected . I forgot about the Pact tie between Germany and USSR between Aug39 and Jun 41 , that allowed a certain amount of "smuggling" of oil and rubber through Russia. Still though the amounts were far under requirements. So the move toward total use synthectic rubber was a certainty once the war started and any accumulated stocks were used.

I am wondering about the
natural rubber from India (by transit over Soviet Union territory) - 4500 tones in 1940 and 14500 tonnes in 1941.
Because Germany went to war with Russia halfway into 41. Are these figures transposed or is it just the Germany got as much as they could before they went to war with Russia? Also I am surprised Britain would have allowed this to occur in greater amounts in a following year since Britain owned India at the time.

Alsaceone
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Re: Buna tires

#6

Post by Alsaceone » 22 Jul 2013, 07:15

The war was not as black and white as we were taught in school when I was young. The rubber sales that originated from India may have come from the autonomous region of India that was outside the direct control of the British. Some of Germany's rubber purchases were done through Soviet officials so that there wouldn't be a direct link. But the story of rubber import/export is for another discussion. The German rubber industry just didn't make tires. Tons of rubber were used tanks, ships, subs, boots, gloves, etc, etc.
There must have been organized war games where the Wehrmacht conducted field tests before they were willing to go into battle using synthetic rubber tires. Same for the Luftwaffe. I thought E.R. Hooton would have referenced this dynamic in his book Phoenix Triumphant, but I didn't see anything. Any ideas on where to look.

ChristopherPerrien
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Re: Buna tires

#7

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 22 Jul 2013, 08:04

There may be something in Tooze- "The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy" -2006, sadly I have not yet bought/read it.

Some mentions are made in Yergin- "The Prize: The Epic Quest for Oil, Money & Power" , but they are in relation more to the changeover to synthetic oil production in Nazi Germany than rubber, and the smuggling of oil not rubber. However the synthetic rubber problem was tied closely to the oil problem and synthetic oil production. I can't access my copy currently.
An excellent book though.

and

Ericson, Edward E. (1999), Feeding the German Eagle: Soviet Economic Aid to Nazi Germany, 1933–1941, which I gather you might have.



Other than that, there may be some indirect info in the Strategic Bombing Surveys, like http://www.angelfire.com/super/ussbs/ It has been a few years since I read through it.

I know of no actual German military studies on the actual problems of synthead rubber vs real rubber,, surely they may exist , buried in archives somewhere.

GregSingh
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Re: Buna tires

#8

Post by GregSingh » 22 Jul 2013, 11:27

I included numbers from Tooze.
They match production of synthetic rubber I provided before, but seems that Germany received much more of natural rubber than from India itself (by Soviet Union transit).
Numbers for 1941 India rubber are for the first 5 month of the year. Soviet Union purchased it on Germany's behalf and shipped to Germany.
There was much more natural rubber imported in 1942. Which way did it get to Germany? By U-boots?
I need to do more digging... :)
Attachments
A.Tooze - rubber.jpg

GregSingh
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Re: Buna tires

#9

Post by GregSingh » 22 Jul 2013, 12:37

Oh well, subject of rubber imports was already discussed on this forum... :)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&start=15
Remaining rubber was sent by Japan to "Vladivostok, from where it would be shipped to Germany by rail."
After June 41 "Japan began to send transport submarines containing rubber to German occupied Europe."

ChristopherPerrien
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Re: Buna tires

#10

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 22 Jul 2013, 19:07

Yea, I went back and read the other 3 rubber topics yesterday , and then went and read the USSBS on the synrubber/rubber industry again. It mentions "blockade runners" after May1941. Now I don't think that many were actual Japanese submarines , as IIRC, there were not that many sub runs in total for the entire war (<20?). So there seems to be no way, 1000's of tons were shipped by subs. Need more investigation into these blockade runners and the true # of sub runs. We have had topics on the sub runs in the past and what was shipped, and how much. I have seen the info somewhere.

On the same note , rubber was basically an irreplaceable substance for rubber tire production. From the USSBS, it seems that no effective/good tire can be made without 14-26% natural rubber content. The rubber is a needed bonding agent for synthead rubber tires. Much was gain by reclamation of old rubber, but still alot of fresh natural rubber was needed, hence the blockade runners.

Alsaceone
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Re: Buna tires

#11

Post by Alsaceone » 23 Jul 2013, 01:58

Blockade running ships were heavily hunted along the coast of Brazil, forcing blockade running into the realm of submarines. There should still be a record of discussion on blockade running somewhere in the Axis History Forum where you can find more details Christopher.

Thanks Greg for the chart. I went to my copy of The Wages of Destruction and found the dust cover was rapped around a copy of The Rockefellers: An American Dynasty. Following Tooze's data regarding Buna production in Germany it would appear that a qualitative uptick in production corresponds with the JU88 and other mass production contracts for the expanding war effort.

I was hoping to cross reference the corporate histories of the three rubber companies who were contracted to develop the tires for the Luftwaffe but it appears their corporate histories have been wiped clean of their involvement, especially Dunlop who manufactured tires for the RAF. Perhaps some of the testing was conducted through Lufthansa.

ChristopherPerrien
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Re: Buna tires

#12

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 23 Jul 2013, 20:59

Found one list of blockade runners 1941-1943, so the rubber is starting to meet the road.

http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/km/blbr.htm

sub runs- 22- not all successful, and includes Italian runs

http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/achse/yanagi.htm

and this site/page

http://sixtant.net/site/index.php?optio ... 8&Itemid=2

and green book

http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/ETO/Ultra/S ... 08-13.html

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