Tungsten; Wolfram

Discussions on the economic history of the nations taking part in WW2, from the recovery after the depression until the economy at war.
User avatar
Al Carter
Member
Posts: 283
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 19:23
Location: Fayetteville, NC

Tungsten; Wolfram

#1

Post by Al Carter » 12 May 2002, 01:06

Did Germany import tungsten from Portugal during WWII? Who was the individual in Germany that was over this area? Tungsten was used in the shell heads to harden them for better armor penetration. After the war have there been any questions as to Portugal and Salazar’s involvement with the Third Reich.

Al Carter

User avatar
admfisher
Member
Posts: 645
Joined: 30 Mar 2002, 02:38
Location: Toronto
Contact:

#2

Post by admfisher » 12 May 2002, 04:09

>Did Germany import tungsten from Portugal during WWII? Who was the individual in Germany that was over this area? Tungsten was used in the shell heads to harden them for better armor penetration. After the war have there been any questions as to Portugal and Salazar’s involvement with the Third Reich. <

I am not to sure who was the supplier of the tungsten.
But on the point of the tungsten being used in shells is only partially true. The majority of tungesten was required for the machining tools. This was why it was not used in German shells after a point.


User avatar
Erich
Member
Posts: 2728
Joined: 13 Mar 2002, 00:28
Location: OR

#3

Post by Erich » 12 May 2002, 05:47

I would have to say that production for the tungsten 3cm rounds for the Mk 103 and the 3.7 for the Flak 18 must have continued through 1944 at some time since the rounds were used until the end of the war.

E

User avatar
Ebusitanus
Member
Posts: 535
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 19:12

#4

Post by Ebusitanus » 12 May 2002, 05:49

Portugal did produce much of Europe's Wolfram. The Allies did their best to "outbuy" the Axis of all available stocks in Portugal. Even then Salazar was wise enough to keep a good batch ready to ship to Germany every month. This went on till mid 1943 when Portugal felt sure enough about Allied ultimate victory and the possibility of German-Spanish invasion had all but evaporated. This is the same time when Portugal finally allowed the Allied airfields on the Azores islands to be build. Up until then only Allied ships could dock under the excuse of the ages old English-Portugese friendship pact. Wolfram came also from Spain but in 1/10 of quantities to the Portuguese mines.

User avatar
admfisher
Member
Posts: 645
Joined: 30 Mar 2002, 02:38
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Good Post

#5

Post by admfisher » 12 May 2002, 05:56

Good post, I did not know this about Portugal.
Ebusitanus wrote:Portugal did produce much of Europe's Wolfram. The Allies did their best to "outbuy" the Axis of all available stocks in Portugal. Even then Salazar was wise enough to keep a good batch ready to ship to Germany every month. This went on till mid 1943 when Portugal felt sure enough about Allied ultimate victory and the possibility of German-Spanish invasion had all but evaporated. This is the same time when Portugal finally allowed the Allied airfields on the Azores islands to be build. Up until then only Allied ships could dock under the excuse of the ages old English-Portugese friendship pact. Wolfram came also from Spain but in 1/10 of quantities to the Portuguese mines.

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 5602
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 22:17
Location: Arizona
Contact:

URAN

#6

Post by Scott Smith » 12 May 2002, 13:32

Uranium armor-piercing-incendiaries were also developed to reduce the need for tungsten in AP ammunition. Machine tools were worth their weight in gold, as were all nonferrous metals.
:)

User avatar
admfisher
Member
Posts: 645
Joined: 30 Mar 2002, 02:38
Location: Toronto
Contact:

good posts

#7

Post by admfisher » 12 May 2002, 18:53

Hey now
What am I a sandwich?

You guys the meat?

All kidding off thanks for the info gents.

User avatar
Y Ddraig Goch
Member
Posts: 371
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 12:07
Location: Cymru

Wolframite

#8

Post by Y Ddraig Goch » 13 May 2002, 12:10

In Albert Speers 'Inside the Third Reich'. He mentions Wolframite imports from Portugal and them being cut. Instead of Wolframite being used in anti-tank projectiles he suggested using Uranium stocks.
/ Mike

"That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
Friedrich Nietzsche

Pumpkin
Member
Posts: 216
Joined: 19 Apr 2002, 15:38
Location: Stockholm

#9

Post by Pumpkin » 13 May 2002, 14:20

Tungsten was first discovered in Sweden (the name literally means means "heavy stone" in Swedish). There is still some mining of it in Sweden. I saw a table stating that the US imports less than half a ton a year from Sweden, out of 10 000 tons total world wide. Maybe there was a Swedish Tungsten export to Germany during the war.

User avatar
Al Carter
Member
Posts: 283
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 19:23
Location: Fayetteville, NC

Russia & China

#10

Post by Al Carter » 13 May 2002, 17:51

Didn't Germany also import tungsten from Russia and Chine before they broke the non-aggression pact with Russia?

Al Carter

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 5602
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 22:17
Location: Arizona
Contact:

Re: Russia & China

#11

Post by Scott Smith » 13 May 2002, 18:32

Al Carter wrote:Didn't Germany also import tungsten from Russia and Chine before they broke the non-aggression pact with Russia?
I don't know but they imported chromium from Turkey, which was vital to the war-effort, and it was cutoff when the Soviets seized the Balkans in 1944-45. That was a big fear that helped precipitate the Barbarossa invasion in 1941.
:)

User avatar
Windward
Member
Posts: 1810
Joined: 30 Jul 2003, 15:41
Location: Pechinum
Contact:

Re: Russia & China

#12

Post by Windward » 14 Sep 2006, 12:21

Al Carter wrote:Didn't Germany also import tungsten from Russia and Chine before they broke the non-aggression pact with Russia?

Al Carter
mostly from China before 1939

an interesting article:

Sino-German cooperation 1911-1941

and

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=94984

PS, Germany intended to help China build a tungsten refining factory in Jiangxi province in 1936

best

User avatar
J
Member
Posts: 199
Joined: 18 Jan 2006, 20:53
Location: Croatia

#13

Post by J » 16 Sep 2006, 17:57

Pumpkin wrote:Tungsten was first discovered in Sweden (the name literally means means "heavy stone" in Swedish). There is still some mining of it in Sweden. I saw a table stating that the US imports less than half a ton a year from Sweden, out of 10 000 tons total world wide. Maybe there was a Swedish Tungsten export to Germany during the war.
Fausto and Juan Jose de Elhuyar are usually credited for the discovery of tungsten in Spain in 1783, although Karl Wilhelm Scheele and Torbern Bergman (who both worked in Sweden) hypothesized of the existance of this metal a couple of years earlier.

There is a usefull article concerning Portugals wolfram exports during WWII here:

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst;jsessioni ... 5001286099
(it will have to be pasted into the adress bar as it contains ! marks)

best regards

User avatar
Denim Demon
Member
Posts: 163
Joined: 31 Jul 2003, 09:46
Location: Stavanger, Norway

#14

Post by Denim Demon » 18 Sep 2006, 21:05

hi,
there was also some import of tungsten from norway, from a mine situated at a small place called knaben. it was bombed by the americans in 1943 i believe.
regards
dd

Gothard
Member
Posts: 511
Joined: 09 May 2005, 01:45
Location: Tustin, California

#15

Post by Gothard » 11 Oct 2006, 06:58

Tungsten is a classic Non Ferrous Metal. It was Imported from both Spain and Portugal by the German Reich.

Germany only had 3 Smelting plants for non Ferrous Metals available to them. Antwerp, Hamburg and Mansfeld.

1942 611 tons were Imported from Portugal
1943 463 tons Imported from Portugal
1944 895 tons Imported from Portugal


The responsible German Was Dipl.- Ing Dr. Stoffregen ( or Soffregen ) in Speers Industry he controlled raw material stocks and planning as well as processing. He really is the big guy. the dipl ing thing means dr of engineering
Dr. Schultheis in the Planning department was responsible for foreign trade - he planned what was needed from foreign suppliers

Hope that starts you - the portugese thing was interesting in that the USA was engaged in a fierce battle to strip the germans of their tungsten supply - ultimately resulting in the purchase of large quantities of Portugese and Spanish ores at a loss to deprive the germans of it. Point was of course moot after anvil of course.

Tungsten was a critical element of the german war industry and its shortage caused the scapping of many excellent weapons systems.

the germans were forced to use creative measures such as larger calibres, rifling and sabot shot to increase velocity to make up for tungsten. this of course resulted in greater barrel wear forcing the germans to mify their barrels into sections to replace the worn ones more easily.

remember the 57mm US at gun gun using tungsten ammo was more feared by the germans than russian 90 - 120mm tank and at guns and drastically outperformed the 76mm.

Post Reply

Return to “Economy”