Canada did make a relevant contribution to the war

[Lawrence Tandy]

[Split from "WHAT DID GERMANY THINK OF CANADA"]




I'm sick of going over this everytime somebody says Canada was irrelevant in WW2.
Canada did make a relevant contribution to the war.
With 1.1 million men under arms, third largest army, 4th largest airforce and 3rd largest navy the contribution was relevent, also the lions share of Atlantic convoy escorts after 1943 and credited with sinking 50 U-Boats. Canada also trained 72,835 allied pilots and produced vast amounts of war goods for the Allies. Not bad for a country with a population of 11 million, certainly not on par with Afghanistan.
I don't think the question was what Hitler thought of Canada, it was what the German soldiers/people thought of Canadians. I imagine hitler just lumped us in with British Commonwealth.

[Lawrence Tandy]

I posted this one on another thread.

As I recall, alot of Atlantic Convoys were escorted by Canadian ships.

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cf ... ic/atlfact


Battle Of The Atlantic.

Considered to have been won by the Allies in 1943, although lasted the duration of the Second World War, which in Europe ended May 8, 1945.
Began September 3, 1939 with the sinking of the Montréal-bound passenger ship SS Athenia by a German submarine west of Ireland. Of the 1,400 passengers and crew, 118, including 4 Canadians, were killed.
Training, air cover, special intelligence and more and better equipment turned the tide in mid-1943.
Royal Canadian Navy (RCN)

Began the war with 13 vessels, of which 6 were destroyers, and 3,500 personnel, and ended it with the third largest navy in the world. At war's end the RCN had 373 fighting ships and over 110,000 members, all of whom were volunteers, including 6,500 women who served in the Women's Royal Canadian Naval Services.
Escort of merchant ship convoys was the RCN's chief responsibility during the Battle. The first convoy sailed from Halifax on September 16, 1939, escorted by the Canadian destroyer St. Laurent. By mid-1942, the RCN, with support from the RCAF, was providing nearly half the convoy escorts, and afterwards carried out the lion's share of escort duty.
Approximately 2,000 members of the RCN died during the war, and 24 RCN vessels were sunk.
Canadian aircraft and ships, alone or in consort with other ships or aircraft, sank 50 U-boats.



and from yet another thread Aufklarung wrote:

"Many Cdns do not realize that 1st Cdn Armys "long left flank" was as important to winning the war as any other. The fact that we were also able to help the Dutch people while battering the German 15th Army Group makes me extra proud of our vets in that theatre. Few also realize that daily Cdn casualties in Holland '44-'45, exceeded the worst daily rate in WW I. "


Cheers

LT

[hauptmannn]

They may have contributed some but i still think hitler and even the germans veiwed Canada as inconsequential. 1.1 million men is massive for a country with only 11 million but compared to Germany's 15 million i don't think the germans were that afraid. The german luftwaffe had more planes and more pilots than the Canadians, the germans had more tanks than the Canadians. The only thing Canada contributed was to the surface navy which the germans did not focus on to rebuild.

[Lawrence Tandy]

I kind of agree with what you said. Like I said, hitler probably just counted Canadian strength along with the Brits. When I was posting my answers I was emphasizing that the Canadian contribution to the war was not irrelevent. We played too large a part to say that our assistance was inconsequential. This is not to say that the war would be lost without Canada's participation. Canada also contributed tank and infantry divisions and a good number. I never said that Canada could take on Germany alone. The Canadians Fought several important Battles in Italy and Sicily, as well as Normandy and beyond and these battles were not insignificant.

[hauptmannn]

But we must never forget the bravery, determination and fighting skill of the Canadians which is evident in the battles they fought or were involved in.

[graham23s]

if i'm right in thinking there was canadian sailors on the hms hood when she went down fighting the bismarck

Graham

[Leibstandarte_reenactor]

Its common just to think of them as common wealth. you never hear about them at D-Day because their beach was not as hard as the Americans. i read a book about the LSSAH and it talks about the canadians soldiers in poor way. and after the hedgerow country battes all you hear about is monty and Pattons race. as far as manpower canada greatly gave. but they generaly served under a brittish Army group, used brit gear weapons and aircraft. so they are mostly thouth of as just another commonwealth force.

[Lawrence Tandy]

Yes, but after Omaha the Canadian beach was the toughest but you still hear about British landings. The Canadians also advanced the furthest on D-Day. I read a book called Steel Inferno by Michael Reynolds( recognized by most as a good book) about the Firstst SS panzer corps in Normandy and the book generally praises how well Canadians fought, but it rightly criticises inexperienced Canadian leaders. Also I must concede that later in the Normandy campaign some Canadian units were temporarily less effective due to losses and poor quality replacements like cooks and supply men who had to be used because a lack of trained replacement. These troops filled the gaps, many dying in their first engagement and some not even knowing how to use a PIAT or Bren gun properly. Sometimes US forces fought under British command but they aren't thought of as British. Canada was it's own country in WW2. As for Monty and Patton's race, that's irrelevent...Canadians didn't just sit back while these two continued the war. I cannot argue that Canadians were thought of as just commonwealth, but I can argue that this opinion is wrong. Canadian contributions were Canadian, but they just don't get credit from most popular historians. For example, when the Canadians took Antwerp...there were lots of Yank and British brass at the celebration but not one Canadian was invited to attend after it was paid for with canadian blood. If that's how our achievments were recognized even then, it is little wonder that Canadians are not remembered outside of Canada. Also, the Brits used a good deal of American equipment, does this mean that the UK should just be thought of as part of the US army? Why take years to develope your own weapons programme when you have allies willing to share their blueprints? Also, most Canadian equipment was made in Canada, not just given to us by our allies.



http://users.pandora.be/dave.depickere/ ... anada.html



"The 3th Canadian Infantry Division at Juno Beach
The Canadian soldiers scheduled to land at Juno Beach warily approached the coastline in their landing craft. Wet, cold, and seasick, they were also confident. On "Mike" sector, most of the 1st Hussars' tanks managed to get ashore in good order to provide covering fire as the Regina Rifles touched down just after 8:00 a.m. That was fortunate since the preliminary bombardment had failed to knock out many German defensive positions. The near invulnerable pill-boxes could be destroyed only by direct hits through their observation slits but, working in tandem, the tanks and infantry succeeded in fighting their way off the beach and into the nearby town of Courseullessur Mer where they became engaged in house-to-house combat. They were moving inland by late afternoon. Other Reginas never reached the beaches a reserve company suffered terrible losses when its landing craft struck mines hidden by high tide.
The company of Victoria's Canadian Scottish and most of The Royal Winnipeg Rifles at "Mike" made it ashore without much trouble, the beneficiaries of accurate naval gunfire which neutralized the German battery that dominated their area of the beach. The Winnipeg company at the western edge of Courseulles was not so lucky. There the bombardment had missed its targets, and the landing craft came under brisk gunfire while they were still far offshore. Although forced to "storm their positions `cold' [they] did so without hesitation", the unit's war diary noted. Many men died the instant they waded into the chest-high water. Nonetheless, the survivors advanced past the beach defences, cleared the minefields, and occupied the adjoining coastal villages. The victory did not come cheaply. In a few hours, the company lost almost three-quarters of its men.

But none of the "Little Black Devils", as the regiment was nicknamed, "had flinched from his task, no matter how tough it was [or] failed to display courage and energy and a degree of gallantry." They had not been alone. The Winnipegs' commanding officer later paid tribute to The 1st Hussars' "gallantry, skill and cool daring" in coming to the assistance of his battalion "time and again throughout D-Day, without thought of their own safety or state of fatigue. ..."

At "Nan" sector on Juno Beach, The North Shore Regiment and The Queen's Own Rifles also encountered enemy gun emplacements that had survived the preliminary bombardment. One concrete bunker and its defenders inflicted heavy casualties on the North Shores and destroyed several Sherman tanks of The Fort Garry Horse before being silenced. The North Shore's other companies made it ashore without incident, but needed six hours and armoured support to take the town of Tailleville.

Toronto's Queen's Own Rifles received the worst battering of any Canadian unit on D-Day. The initial bombardment on their sector of "Nan" had barely dented the enemy's fortifications. The DD tanks, supposed to "swim" in ahead of the infantry to diminish German resistance, had been forced by high waves to land after them--"within a few hundred yards of the muzzles of the beach defence guns", one tank commander recalled afterward. Only a few made it into action.

A half-hour late, the landing craft carrying the Queen's Own hit the beach more or less intact. Then the bloodbath began, the men making a mad dash from the shoreline to a seawall 183 metres away with no cover in between. A hidden German 88 opened up on the lead platoon of one company, decimating two-thirds of it before being silenced. Only a handful survived to get off the beach.

A second Queen's Own company landed directly in front of an untouched enemy strongpoint and very quickly lost half of its men, until three riflemen eliminated it with hand grenades and small arms fire. The price had been high, but the Queen's Own moved off the beach. The war diary of this, one of the oldest regiments in the Canadian Army, reflected the unit's unflagging spirit under onerous conditions.

The reserve units of the Canadian Scottish and the Chaudières arrived on the heels of the initial assault. The Scottish suffered the lightest casualties of any Canadian battalion on D-Day. But, coming in on the rising tide, many of Le Régiment de la Chaudière's landing craft struck concealed mines, and their occupants had no option but to throw off their equipment and swim to shore. Soon, both regiments were surging forward. By noon, the 9th Infantry Brigade was on its way to the beaches to exploit the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division's hard-won gains.

Although only one Canadian unit reached its D-Day objective, the first line of German defences had been completely smashed. By evening, Canadian troops had progressed further inland than any of their Allies. It was a remarkable achievement but, despite casualties being less than expected, it was an expensive one, too. "The German dead were littered over the dunes, by the gun positions", a Canadian journalist reported. "By them, lay Canadians in bloodstained battledress, in the sand and in the grass, on the wire and by the concrete forts. ...They had lived a few minutes of the victory they had made. That was all." To ensure that D-Day would succeed, 340 Canadians had given their lives. Another 574 had been wounded and 47 taken prisoner.

And a resounding success it was. The British and Americans had also come ashore and pushed inland; the Allied beachheads soon formed a continuous front. By the end of D-Day, the Allies had landed as many as 155,000 troops in France by sea and air, several thousand vehicles, hundreds of guns and about 4,000 tons of supplies and, astonishingly, had achieved complete surprise in doing it. The Atlantic Wall had been breached. But the battle had just begun. The bridgehead had to be secured and expanded to prevent the Wehrmacht from driving the Allies back into the sea."

[daniel kochenberger]

i'm not sure,but i think germany sent a few submarine to sink convoy on st-lawrence river in Canada.i also read somewhere that they introduce nazi spys in Canada. Am i right?....thanks!

[Lawrence Tandy]

I'm pretty sure you're right about ships being sunk in the Saint Lawrence, don't know about spies though.

[Landser]

My cousin was a Panzergrenadier with SS-HJ Div. and they faced Canadiens numerous times.First impression they had was of mixed reaction,but later on and still today he thinks the Canadians, among other Commonwealth troops, were mostly used as cannon fodder.

His reasoning was established when observing certain confrontations
with Brits or US units.He actually liked fighting the Canadians or Poles simply because they never had to deal with an extensive Allied air coverage,as compared to the former. See what I mean!

[Lawrence Tandy]

My cousin was a Panzergrenadier with SS-HJ Div. and they faced Canadiens numerous times.First impression they had was of mixed reaction,but later on and still today he thinks the Canadians, among other Commonwealth troops, were mostly used as cannon fodder.

His reasoning was established when observing certain confrontations
with Brits or US units.He actually liked fighting the Canadians or Poles simply because they never had to deal with an extensive Allied air coverage,as compared to the former. See what I mean!

That's weird. The RCAF had 232,500 men, you would think that some would appear over the battlefield. Also more than one Candian attack was precluded by massive bombing raids, although not so effective as they would like I'm sure. The Cannon fodder you speak of virtually annihilated the 12th SS, though at tremendous cost. The 12th SS fighting against US soldiers in the Ardennes was not the same force it was in Normandy.

[Landser]

Mr.Tandy.

I thought I stuck stricktly to the topic.I'M sorry if you have a different oppinion But I only gave the thought of somebody who had first hand experience.I never said he dismisses the Canadians as poor fighters,as I said before they rather faced Canadians and Poles for the before mentioned reason.

I think the notion of Commenwealth
troops considered as canon fodder, was allready established in WWI especially in Turkey.

[Lawrence Tandy]

Mr.Tandy.

I thought I stuck stricktly to the topic.I'M sorry if you have a different oppinion But I only gave the thought of somebody who had first hand experience.I never said he dismisses the Canadians as poor fighters,as I said before they rather faced Canadians and Poles for the before mentioned reason.

I think the notion of Commenwealth
troops considered as canon fodder, was allready established in WWI especialy in Turkey.

I owe you an apology. I have no right to question this veteran. I just get upset, because alot of Canadians died in both World Wars and it hurts when someone says our contribution was irrelevent. You never said this I know. It was very presumptuous of me to argue against the word of somebody who served through these battles.
Please accept my most sincere apologies.

LT

[Landser]

Mr.Tandy!

No problem,you're a gentleman!
I really did'n feel offended.
I understand your concern.


Best regards to you too!


Al.