Captured Curtiss Hawks used by Luftwaffe?
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Captured Curtiss Hawks used by Luftwaffe?
Moro,
It is a widely known fact that the Germans captured several dozens of Armee de l'Air Curtiss H-75 Hawks during the French campaign in summer 1940. Many of those were subsequently donated (or sold) to Finland, later joined by Norwegian examples up to a total of 44.
It is also no secret that - among many other types - some captured Hawks have been flown by the Luftwaffe for evaluation purposes.
But when browsing http://www.Luftarchiv.de chapter Beuteflugzeuge, the foto of a Curtiss Hawk in Luftwaffe colours with the caption "H-75 DS+NQ, das III./JG 77 erhielt 30 Hawk's für den Einsatz" made my eyebrowes rise.
My question: did the Luftwaffe (or III./JG 77 as specified) actually make operational use of such number of captured Hawks? I had never heard of this and cannot find any sources to confirm such. In fact, the story sounds rather incredible to me, but perhaps someone knows more? After all, Luftarchiv would not make up such a story, would they?
Rgds, René Dolfsma
It is a widely known fact that the Germans captured several dozens of Armee de l'Air Curtiss H-75 Hawks during the French campaign in summer 1940. Many of those were subsequently donated (or sold) to Finland, later joined by Norwegian examples up to a total of 44.
It is also no secret that - among many other types - some captured Hawks have been flown by the Luftwaffe for evaluation purposes.
But when browsing http://www.Luftarchiv.de chapter Beuteflugzeuge, the foto of a Curtiss Hawk in Luftwaffe colours with the caption "H-75 DS+NQ, das III./JG 77 erhielt 30 Hawk's für den Einsatz" made my eyebrowes rise.
My question: did the Luftwaffe (or III./JG 77 as specified) actually make operational use of such number of captured Hawks? I had never heard of this and cannot find any sources to confirm such. In fact, the story sounds rather incredible to me, but perhaps someone knows more? After all, Luftarchiv would not make up such a story, would they?
Rgds, René Dolfsma
Re: Captured Curtiss Hawks used by Luftwaffe?
I don't know if this helps but these 5 are all the Hawks i found wich got their codes (i reckon if the luftwaffe would use them in service they would have gotten a code!)
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/stam-d.html (Just change the D to whatever you want)
DS+NQ Curtiss H75 (from Mar.1943 on I./JG104)
DS+NU Curtiss H75 A-4 (from Mar.1943 on I./JG104)
G+F Curtiss H75 A
KQ+ZA Curtiss H75 A-4 W.Nr.000050
NS+NQ Curtiss H75 W.Nr.000024
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/stam-d.html (Just change the D to whatever you want)
DS+NQ Curtiss H75 (from Mar.1943 on I./JG104)
DS+NU Curtiss H75 A-4 (from Mar.1943 on I./JG104)
G+F Curtiss H75 A
KQ+ZA Curtiss H75 A-4 W.Nr.000050
NS+NQ Curtiss H75 W.Nr.000024
Re: Captured Curtiss Hawks used by Luftwaffe?
some bits of information on this:
According to Wydawnictwo Militaria vol.103 a number of Hawks were brought up to german standard by installing Revi-12 and FuG-7a at Wuppertal (at Espenlaub GmbH). My polish is not well enough to cope with the full meaning of the whole text, but it also mentions use by III./JG 77 (Hans Schopper). The aircraft were used as enemy aircraft in the movie "Kampfgeschwader Lützow".
According to Wydawnictwo Militaria vol.103 a number of Hawks were brought up to german standard by installing Revi-12 and FuG-7a at Wuppertal (at Espenlaub GmbH). My polish is not well enough to cope with the full meaning of the whole text, but it also mentions use by III./JG 77 (Hans Schopper). The aircraft were used as enemy aircraft in the movie "Kampfgeschwader Lützow".
Last edited by Auseklis on 12 Mar 2008, 01:45, edited 1 time in total.
- Juha Tompuri
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- phylo_roadking
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Re: Captured Curtiss Hawks used by Luftwaffe?
I have these as the Hawks transferred to Finland and their numbers...
Subtype A-4 (Cyclone): CUc-501...-507, since Dec 1941: CU-502...-506 (=7)
Subtype A-2 (Twin-Wasp): CUw-551 and CU-556, since Dec 1941: CU-551, -556, -574, -575, -579...-581, -584 and -585 (=9)
Subtype A-3 (Twin-Wasp): CUw-552, -562, -563, since Dec 1941: CU-552, -562, -563, -571, -572, -576, -582, -583 and -586 (=9)
Subtype A-6 (Twin-Wasp): CUw-553...-555, -557...-561, -564, -565, -567, -569 and -570, since Dec 1941: CU-553...-555, -557...-561, -564, -565, -567, -569 and -570 (=13)
Subtype A-1 (Twin-Wasp): CUw-566 and -568, since Dec 1941 CU-566, -568, -573, -577, -578 and -587 (=6)
A-4 are French Mohawk IVs
A-2 are French Mohawk IIs
A-3 are French Mohawlk IIIs
A-1 are French Hawk 75A1/Mohawk Is
A-6 are Norwegian Hawk 75A-6s
Total 44
So if 13 were the Norwegian Hawks the other 31 must be transferred French aircraft
Subtype A-4 (Cyclone): CUc-501...-507, since Dec 1941: CU-502...-506 (=7)
Subtype A-2 (Twin-Wasp): CUw-551 and CU-556, since Dec 1941: CU-551, -556, -574, -575, -579...-581, -584 and -585 (=9)
Subtype A-3 (Twin-Wasp): CUw-552, -562, -563, since Dec 1941: CU-552, -562, -563, -571, -572, -576, -582, -583 and -586 (=9)
Subtype A-6 (Twin-Wasp): CUw-553...-555, -557...-561, -564, -565, -567, -569 and -570, since Dec 1941: CU-553...-555, -557...-561, -564, -565, -567, -569 and -570 (=13)
Subtype A-1 (Twin-Wasp): CUw-566 and -568, since Dec 1941 CU-566, -568, -573, -577, -578 and -587 (=6)
A-4 are French Mohawk IVs
A-2 are French Mohawk IIs
A-3 are French Mohawlk IIIs
A-1 are French Hawk 75A1/Mohawk Is
A-6 are Norwegian Hawk 75A-6s
Total 44
So if 13 were the Norwegian Hawks the other 31 must be transferred French aircraft
Re: Captured Curtiss Hawks used by Luftwaffe?
In August and September 1940 a dozen french Curtiss H 75 formed the 7./JG 77, because of late arriving or missing Bf 109E's. Those arrived though at the end of August to Döberitz where III./JG 77 was stationed during this time. So, for some time the Staffel had a double set of aircraft, until the end of October when the Curtiss machines were given back (where?), without having flown any missions!
Info taken from Prien et al.: "Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe , Teil 5".
Regards
Hans
Info taken from Prien et al.: "Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe , Teil 5".
Regards
Hans
- phylo_roadking
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Re: Captured Curtiss Hawks used by Luftwaffe?
They may not have had "missions" but I'd assume CAP sorties, engine/instrument tests, training/familiarisiation etc. They wouldn't have sat totally idle for in effect 18 months before their December 1941 transfer date to Finalnd.
Re: Captured Curtiss Hawks used by Luftwaffe?
Well, that makes the RAF's claim, upon first encountering the Fw 190, that they were Curtiss Hawks, slightly more credible!
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Re: Captured Curtiss Hawks used by Luftwaffe?
Not that big thing, but the majority of the planes were delivered to Finland during the summer of 1941.phylo_roadking wrote: They wouldn't have sat totally idle for in effect 18 months before their December 1941 transfer date to Finalnd.
Regards, Juha
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Luftwaffe Curtiss Hawks
Wow, thanks for the replies! As to summarize this and other information:
A dozen of captured (Armee de l'Air?) Curtiss Hawks were assigned to 7/JG 77 (at Döberitz?) during August - October 1940 as make-shift equipment while awaiting delivery of their Bf109's. During that period the Hawks were used to shoot a (propaganda?) movie.
The Luftwaffe also used Curtiss Hawks at E-Stelle Rechlin and JFS 4 at Fürth (some Hawks apparently were still in use when JFS 4 was redesignated I/JG 104 in March 1943).
Delivery to Finland of 29 ex French and Norwegian Hawks took place in June - December 1941, followed by another batch of 15 ex French a/c in June 1943 - January 1944.
I consider it rather likely that 7/JG 77 put aside the Hawks from the end of August, when the Bf109's started to arrive. So apart from starring in the movie, the Hawks would probably not have been used intensively.
Are there any accounts from JFS 4 and/or JG 104 on how many Hawks were used during which period? The unit must have been a vivid and colourful collection of all kinds of aircraft, also including Ar96, Avia B534, B71, Bf108, Bf109, Bü131, Bü133, CR42, Fw56, Fw189, Fw190, Go145, He51, IAR80, Ju160, Kl32, Kl35 and W34. Rather interesting....
To tickle the Ilmavoimat experts with another question: Most Norwegian examples were captured and delivered in their crates. But were the French examples selected from war booty storage/dump or could those have seen "operational" use with III/JG 77 or JFS 4? Considering the time frame would have been possible.
Regards, René Dolfsma
A dozen of captured (Armee de l'Air?) Curtiss Hawks were assigned to 7/JG 77 (at Döberitz?) during August - October 1940 as make-shift equipment while awaiting delivery of their Bf109's. During that period the Hawks were used to shoot a (propaganda?) movie.
The Luftwaffe also used Curtiss Hawks at E-Stelle Rechlin and JFS 4 at Fürth (some Hawks apparently were still in use when JFS 4 was redesignated I/JG 104 in March 1943).
Delivery to Finland of 29 ex French and Norwegian Hawks took place in June - December 1941, followed by another batch of 15 ex French a/c in June 1943 - January 1944.
I consider it rather likely that 7/JG 77 put aside the Hawks from the end of August, when the Bf109's started to arrive. So apart from starring in the movie, the Hawks would probably not have been used intensively.
Are there any accounts from JFS 4 and/or JG 104 on how many Hawks were used during which period? The unit must have been a vivid and colourful collection of all kinds of aircraft, also including Ar96, Avia B534, B71, Bf108, Bf109, Bü131, Bü133, CR42, Fw56, Fw189, Fw190, Go145, He51, IAR80, Ju160, Kl32, Kl35 and W34. Rather interesting....
To tickle the Ilmavoimat experts with another question: Most Norwegian examples were captured and delivered in their crates. But were the French examples selected from war booty storage/dump or could those have seen "operational" use with III/JG 77 or JFS 4? Considering the time frame would have been possible.
Regards, René Dolfsma
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Re: Captured Curtiss Hawks used by Luftwaffe?
Hi All,
In looking at the following pics, what colors do you think these where painted in ? They look to flat to be unpainted aluminum.
http://www.histaviation.com/Curtiss_Haw ... chive.html
Does the cowl of KQ+ZA and DS+NU look like it might be a different color than the fuse?? It seems more glossy and a slightly different shade? What would the standard have been for these? Every artist rendering of KQ+ZA shows it being unpainted, but those pics make it look otherwise.
In looking at a few color pics of other captured aircraft where I can compare color to B&W, KQ+ZA doesn't match the tones of the dark grey, yellow, or bare aluminum in those pics. So I'm thinking maybe light grey and a darker shade on the cowl. Am I anywhere near close? I just doesn't look bare to me.
I'm about to begin a project of an 63inch wingspan RC Luftwaffe Hawk 75 and it looks like I'm zeroing in on KQ+ZA as my subject.
Also can anyone shed any light on what the writing is on the tail both above and below the elevator? I need to be able to reproduce it so translation is not as critical as needing to recreate it.
Thanks for any help.
Joe
In looking at the following pics, what colors do you think these where painted in ? They look to flat to be unpainted aluminum.
http://www.histaviation.com/Curtiss_Haw ... chive.html
Does the cowl of KQ+ZA and DS+NU look like it might be a different color than the fuse?? It seems more glossy and a slightly different shade? What would the standard have been for these? Every artist rendering of KQ+ZA shows it being unpainted, but those pics make it look otherwise.
In looking at a few color pics of other captured aircraft where I can compare color to B&W, KQ+ZA doesn't match the tones of the dark grey, yellow, or bare aluminum in those pics. So I'm thinking maybe light grey and a darker shade on the cowl. Am I anywhere near close? I just doesn't look bare to me.
I'm about to begin a project of an 63inch wingspan RC Luftwaffe Hawk 75 and it looks like I'm zeroing in on KQ+ZA as my subject.
Also can anyone shed any light on what the writing is on the tail both above and below the elevator? I need to be able to reproduce it so translation is not as critical as needing to recreate it.
Thanks for any help.
Joe
- Michael Emrys
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Re: Captured Curtiss Hawks used by Luftwaffe?
They definitely don't look like bare aluminum. Often prewar aircraft were painted in aluminum or silver paint, which does not have a specular finish, but this doesn't even look like that. Just what color it is, I haven't a clue. If these planes were in Allied possession, I might guess that they were chrome yellow all over, but I don't know what the Germans used in this situation.Joespeeder wrote:Hi All,
In looking at the following pics, what colors do you think these where painted in ? They look to flat to be unpainted aluminum.
No, I think it is more a trick of light.Does the cowl of KQ+ZA and DS+NU look like it might be a different color than the fuse?? It seems more glossy and a slightly different shade?
Michael
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Re: Captured Curtiss Hawks used by Luftwaffe?
If they were in unpainted aluminium, the white wouldn't show up in such contrast in the centre row two pics, both in the fuselage cross and the data painted on the tail.
Re: Captured Curtiss Hawks used by Luftwaffe?
This is from Luftwaffe im Focus 3/2003
During campaigns in Norway and France, the Luftwaffe captured an unknown number of Curtiss H75A fighters. At least six of these aircraft were sent directly to Rechlin for testing. Other Curtiss fighters were assigned to III./JG 77, which, following the campaign in Norway was based at Döberitz to protect the capital. The newly-formed 7. Staffel flew the Curtiss fighters as operational aircraft in September and October 1940. Their value as combat aircraft was virtualy nil, however, as the lack of ammunition belts for the aircraft's machine-guns prevented them from being armed. In early November 1940, therefore, 7. Staffel re-equiped with the BF 109E-7. After the failure of the experiment of using the aircraft as an operational type, a handful were transferred to the Replacement Training Fighter Gruppe in Merseburg and to JFS 1, a fighter training school based in Werneuchen. The bulk of captured Curtiss fighters were sold to Finland in the second half of 1941. Our photograph depicts one of the Curtiss H75A fighters sent to JFS 1 in Werneuchen. When the photoghraph was taken is unknown. Note the previously unidentified ''Walking Stick and Top Hat'' emblem. This emblem was used by JFS 1, however only a few of the school's aircraft are known to have worn it in 1941 (Ar 96 and Bf 109D). Unfortunately, no further information concerning the origins or significance of the emblem has so far come to light. To date, only one Curtiss H75A, coded +68 is known to have been at Werneuchen, the information coming from a pilot's logbook.
During campaigns in Norway and France, the Luftwaffe captured an unknown number of Curtiss H75A fighters. At least six of these aircraft were sent directly to Rechlin for testing. Other Curtiss fighters were assigned to III./JG 77, which, following the campaign in Norway was based at Döberitz to protect the capital. The newly-formed 7. Staffel flew the Curtiss fighters as operational aircraft in September and October 1940. Their value as combat aircraft was virtualy nil, however, as the lack of ammunition belts for the aircraft's machine-guns prevented them from being armed. In early November 1940, therefore, 7. Staffel re-equiped with the BF 109E-7. After the failure of the experiment of using the aircraft as an operational type, a handful were transferred to the Replacement Training Fighter Gruppe in Merseburg and to JFS 1, a fighter training school based in Werneuchen. The bulk of captured Curtiss fighters were sold to Finland in the second half of 1941. Our photograph depicts one of the Curtiss H75A fighters sent to JFS 1 in Werneuchen. When the photoghraph was taken is unknown. Note the previously unidentified ''Walking Stick and Top Hat'' emblem. This emblem was used by JFS 1, however only a few of the school's aircraft are known to have worn it in 1941 (Ar 96 and Bf 109D). Unfortunately, no further information concerning the origins or significance of the emblem has so far come to light. To date, only one Curtiss H75A, coded +68 is known to have been at Werneuchen, the information coming from a pilot's logbook.
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