Me 262 C-1a

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Minnesota Kent
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Me 262 C-1a

#1

Post by Minnesota Kent » 10 Mar 2009, 00:09

I'm new to the forum and I make scale model aircraft. I recently purchased the Academy 1:72 Me 262 kit with the option to build the "C" version. As I've checked my references, some show the rocket exhaust coming from a pipe under the fuselage. This is what the Academy kit does. The tip of the fuselage tail is cut away but blunt. Others (e.g. Green) show the exhaust nozzle ducted directly out the end of the fuselage and the tail section enlarged slightly to accommodate the exhaust opening. I've had a hard time telling from the photographs which arrangement is correct. This aircraft was destroyed in a raid, so I can't check the original. Does anyone know which is correct?

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Me 262 C-1a

#2

Post by phylo_roadking » 10 Mar 2009, 00:21

M-K, does this help?

Image


Minnesota Kent
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Re: Me 262 C-1a

#3

Post by Minnesota Kent » 10 Mar 2009, 01:10

Thanks. I do have this photo. The angle of the tail cone suggests that there is no nozzle aperture there. Have you ever seen a photo or drawing of this aircraft from the rear? I assume Academy did its homework, but after running into the other version in several books and on several sites, I was beginning to wonder. It does look like the exhaust is coming from the pipe underneath the fuselage, but this rocket engine also had a starter which generated exhaust (as on the Me-163).

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Me 262 C-1a

#4

Post by phylo_roadking » 10 Mar 2009, 02:45

M-K, if you look closely....and I'm looking at the raw pic now - that looks like a nozzle right up under the back of the tail, but with some sort of spigot or probe below it?...

Image

...with the rocket plume just starting to appear right out on the right of shot. In a better-performing motor, or a dull day, we should have been able to see "shock diamonds" between the nozzle and the plume.

Don't forget - the Me163's nozzle wasn't exactly impressive either :lol:

Image

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Me 262 C-1a

#5

Post by phylo_roadking » 10 Mar 2009, 03:25


Minnesota Kent
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Re: Me 262 C-1a

#6

Post by Minnesota Kent » 10 Mar 2009, 04:56

Thanks for the close-up. It does appear to be very faint diamond patterns forming behind the tail in line with an exhaust through the tail cone. If this is true, the Academy kit is wrong. Also, I can't get onto the "walter-rocket" site. I keep getting another company and a note that says the domain name has expired. Any suggestions?

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Ironmachine
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Re: Me 262 C-1a

#7

Post by Ironmachine » 10 Mar 2009, 14:15

Well, I am not an expert in the matter, but I find it quite curious that the Me 262C-2b, the variant with integrated jet and rocket engines, also had the pipe under the fuselage. As the rocket engines were mounted atop the rear of each jet exhaust, it is clear that the pipe is not the rocket exhaust, but it is still there and there is no cut in the tail. All this seems to support the idea that the pipe is not the rocket exhaust in the C-1a, either. But then, what was the purpose of the pipe?

See some drawings here:
http://www.luft46models.com/manufacture ... 2c1acz.jpg

And a video of the BMW 718 rocket engine test firing on the Me 262C-2b, in which the pipe can be seen:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jqmgrdyk/jetpower ... wm003r.mpg

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Me 262 C-1a

#8

Post by phylo_roadking » 10 Mar 2009, 17:37

Also, I can't get onto the "walter-rocket" site. I keep getting another company and a note that says the domain name has expired. Any suggestions?
bummer - it's working ok for me (just tested it again) But here's the pic you'll be most interested in...

Image

Here you can see - with the rudder conveniently removed! - where the nozzle is.

But scope out THIS....

Image

There is SOME sort of fillet/pipe/conduit under the last few feet of the fuselage as well as the nozzle above it.

Minnesota Kent
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Re: Me 262 C-1a

#9

Post by Minnesota Kent » 11 Mar 2009, 00:55

THANK YOU!!! This is the proof I needed. I think the other visible pipe under the fuselage ducts the exhaust from the rocket engine pump -- just as there is a pump exhaust under the Me 163. I'm not sure why they ducted it to the rear. Perhaps with the tricycle landing gear (and a nose-gear that was notoriously weak) they didn't want to add any kind of downward thrust behind the center of gravity (which would push the tail end upward and put more downward pressure on the nose gear as the aircraft was trying to lift off). So ducting it out the rear would align what ever force was coming from the pump exhaust with the rocket engine thrust. Does this seem plausible?
I did email Academy about this question. I haven't heard back from them yet. I wonder if they are aware of this photo?

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Re: Me 262 C-1a

#10

Post by Minnesota Kent » 11 Mar 2009, 00:59

Follow-up: the smaller pipe you pointed out I haven't seen in any other photo or drawing. The pipe I have been talking about appears to be fairly large in diameter and directly under the fuselage. This smaller pipe appears to be at about an 8 o'clock position relative to the rocket nozzle. Could it be like the smaller pipe that comes out under the rocket nozzle in the Me-163?

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Ome_Joop
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Re: Me 262 C-1a

#11

Post by Ome_Joop » 11 Mar 2009, 01:07

Took me some time to think of that number 12 on your picture Phylo (but then i realised it's the rudder control and has nothing to do with the rocket).

Me-262c-1a was supposed to have a HWK 109-509 engine in it tail right?!
So i gues it is the Entlüftungsventil (vent valve)?
Image

http://www.bredow-web.de/Triebwerke_und ... 9-509.html

The available drawings does make it look thicker/bigger (pipe like).
Image

http://www.afwing.com/intro/me262/new/5.htm

Interesting though that the Me-262c-2b supposed to have 2x BMW 003 R but why still that pipe (lack of info or wrong drawing)? Notice closed tail/rudder
Image

http://www.xs4all.nl/~jqmgrdyk/jetpower ... er-p3a.htm

Minnesota Kent
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Re: Me 262 C-1a

#12

Post by Minnesota Kent » 11 Mar 2009, 01:15

Second followup: I enlarged the photo and it looks like there is some kind of link at the end of the small side pipe. Check a little behind the link -- is there an opening in the pipe before the end of it?

To Ome_Joop,
I'm thinking the large pipe underneath the fuselage corresponds to # 14 on the motor diagram -- the "Abdampfrohr" -- and the smaller pipe in the enlarged tail picture is # 15 -- the "Entluftungsventil". As for the C-2 version, if it didn't have the Walter rocket in the fuselage, I don't know what purpose that pipe would serve. Perhaps is is a drafting error. I saw the Japanese site drawing -- I wish I could translate the captions!

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Me 262 C-1a

#13

Post by phylo_roadking » 11 Mar 2009, 01:30

Here's a pic of the motor installation with the rear of the fuselage and tail removed; note the bit I've outlined, that little pipe is indeed the "Entluftungsventil"...

Image

...and if you look at the pic I posted earlier of the tail/nozzle configuration without the rudder, you can see the actual real-life "entluftungsventil" is very small. See here, where it pops out of the end of what looks like a bodywork fillet over it's length -

Image

For some reason the diagramatic one seems overly exaggerated, and drawn as a complete exhaust pipe. A misunderstanding?

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Me 262 C-1a

#14

Post by phylo_roadking » 11 Mar 2009, 01:40

EDIT: the Me262 Walter installation wasn't quite a standard HWK 109-509.A1 - the Walter site refers to it as a HWK 109-509.S1....while the version later put together for the Messerschmitt Me 262.C-3 "Heimatschützer IV" project, the bolt-on ventral-pack version, cobbled together from a HWK 109-509.A2 and an HWK 109-509.C - was referred to there as a HWK 109-509.S2

Minnesota Kent
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Re: Me 262 C-1a

#15

Post by Minnesota Kent » 11 Mar 2009, 03:07

To Phylo_Roadking:
That's a great shot. I think you're right, though the installation shot makes it look like this pipe is directly underneath (unless it's just an odd angle, or the negative got reversed). Do you think the large pipe in the diagrams is for the pump exhaust? Are all these photos on the site that I haven't been able to access?

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