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Me 262 combat kill ratio victories/losses?

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.

Me 262 combat kill ratio victories/losses?

Postby ChristopherPerrien on 16 Apr 2003 23:26

Does anyone here know how many were actually shot down in combat and or how many planes Me 262 pilots shotdown? types? any aces in these planes?
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Me 262 aces, etc......

Postby Erich on 17 Apr 2003 02:06

Yes there were several aces flying the Me 262A-1a, Heinz Bär scoring at least 12-16 along with another 20 or so pilots with 9-12 claims. JG 7 had roughly 450 victories many on the Ost Front in April-May of 1945 and only a scant few know of these. JV 44 under Adolf Galland had about 50. 10./NJG 11 under Kurt Welter and flying the jet at night had around 50 as well but these will be covered in our book.......

~E~ 8)
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Thanks

Postby ChristopherPerrien on 17 Apr 2003 02:17

I knew a little about JV 44 from Galland's book But I did not know anything about other units and their pilots.

From other sites I have heard about 1200 were built of which only about 300 flew, Still don't know how many of those flew as fighters or didn't because of Hitler's stupid "Blitzbomber idea."

JG 7 450 victories in two months with the fuel shortage as it was, sounds pretty astounding. Is there anywhere to read up on this?

Have a good day
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Me 262's ......

Postby Erich on 17 Apr 2003 02:38

Two months ? no I meant the last victories of JG 7 were on the Ost front battling Soviet a/c in April and May. The unit was actually in existance in October of 44 with trials and errors and in December of 44 with 10 Me 262's the jet unit starting chasing P-38's and mosquito's, and by early 1945 it's focus was mainly the US four engine bomber.

The top book is Manfred Boehme's JG 7 and for overall coverage the best so far is by Classic Publications from the UK, four volumes on the Me 262, the last two covering the combat of the jet units.

~E~
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OK

Postby ChristopherPerrien on 17 Apr 2003 03:40

My mistake ,I believe I have seen that book JG 7, don't remember reading it I will get it though, thanks.
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Re: Thanks

Postby Scott Smith on 17 Apr 2003 04:48

ChristopherPerrien wrote:I knew a little about JY 44 from Galland's book But I did not know anything about other units and their pilots.

From other sites I have heard about 1200 were built of which only about 300 flew, Still don't know how many of those flew as fighters or didn't because of Hitler's stupid "Blitzbomber idea."

JG 7 450 victories in two months with the fuel shortage as it was, sounds pretty astounding. Is there anywhere to read up on this?

Have a good day

Actually almost all of the Me 262s were configured as fighters, not fight-bombers. Btw, almost all combat jets are fighter-bombers today. Must not have been such a stupid idea after all.
:wink:
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Vas?

Postby ChristopherPerrien on 17 Apr 2003 16:56

No it was a stupid idea:

The Me 262 was designed as as fighter not an Fb. Hitler order was the reason only 300 of a production of 1200 managed to get into the air because the of the deleys caused by having to cut out and install a bombbay plus sight and other modifications. The conversion caused a loss of valuable topspeed enabling it to be caught by P-47's in a dive and making the plane only slightly faster the the last model of P-51.

Needless to say the bomb-bay affected manerability the wrong way.
The fb version could not bomb effectively or accurately because it was too fast for the sight and the plane could only carry two bombs.

Hitler's order caused another lost chance at the Germans regaining air superiority when their cities aand factories were getting bombed flat by our planes. And the Wermacht was also paralysed by our tac-air.

However don't take my word for it read Adolf Galland's book "The First and The Last" , chief of the Luftwaffe Figther Arm. I am sure he shot down more allied planes than you did. But I suppose we could give Hitler credit for shooting down those 900 Me 262 's that never managed to get into the sky because of his "GREAT!" idea.
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Re: Thanks

Postby redcoat on 17 Apr 2003 19:56

ChristopherPerrien wrote:From other sites I have heard about 1200 were built of which only about 300 flew, Still don't know how many of those flew as fighters or didn't because of Hitler's stupid "Blitzbomber idea."



Did hitler delay the Me262 or was it this ?
"The simple fact remains that Junkers failed to resolve the problems posed by the series manufacture of the turbojet powering the Me 262 until mid-1944, and thus could not commence volume deliveries to Messerschmitt until the following September-October. Furthermore, the consensus of opinion of those actually engaged in the design development and testing of the Me 262 was to be that the fighter was introduced into service at the earliest practicable stage in its evolution; that any earlier deployment of the warplane on a large scale would have been entirely premature"

Source- "Warplanes of the Third Reich", by William Green
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Don't see it

Postby ChristopherPerrien on 17 Apr 2003 20:05

I don't know who William Green is but I doubt he is an authority as Gaalland is. Galland was standing next to Hitler when this Blitzbomber bs happened, The reasons that I state are his and I consider them "Gospel"
based on both his experience competence and the fact that he was "there". He also flew the Me-262 in combat, I really don't think you could find a better expert anywhere living or dead.
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Delays in the Me 262

Postby ChristopherPerrien on 17 Apr 2003 20:17

Development of the production model was delayed by delays in The engine production on Jumo 004 engines, I think they shed turbofan blades.
What I'm talking about is the production model was stopped by Hitler's order. Every day that was lost after that and every Me 262 that did not get in the air caused worse bomb damage on German factories which caused less fuel, less jet engine parts, and ect. causing less Me 262 to fly as air superiority fighters. Vicious circular set of facts and irrefutable.[/u]
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....

Postby Trommelfeuer on 17 Apr 2003 21:49

Whatever the tactics used, the sheer number of allied planes involved made the jet attacks almost irrelevant. For instance, on March 18th III./JG 7 sent up 37 Me 262s to engage a force of 1,221 American bombers and 632 escorting fighters. This action marked the first time the new R4M rockets were used by the Me 262. In the end 12 bombers and 1 fighter were claimed with the loss of 3 Me 262s. Even on their biggest day, JG 7 flew 38 sorties, knocking down 14 US and British bombers and 2 fighters with a loss of 4 Me 262s. Their best efforts yielded less than a 1% loss for the Allies. Thus, we see the pattern that marked most German efforts in the latter part of the war. The Germans had many effective weapons but they were no match for the overwhelming Allied numerical superiority.


http://www.luftwaffe-experten.com/aircr ... _text.html


I just found this story "breaking of the sound barrier in 1945 in Me 262"...any opinions?

Sound Barrier

On April 9, 1945, the testpilot Hans Guido Mutke (Privat, 24 yrs.), during training with the Luftwaffe, climbed a regular Me 262. After reaching 11.000m he recognized a Kamerad who was in trouble with a British Spitfire.

After a full-speed dive at 40 degrees.... his bird seemed to get fist-punched. "It rattled and banged, I crashed my head on the cockpit glass" he recalls -losing control of the flight control surfaces momentarily he eventually managed to level out and returned to the airfield.

(His Kamerad meanwhile had managed to shoot down the Spit.) "The Messerschmidt was definately supersonic for about 7 sec." ,he claims. "It was just like being hit over the head with 'Thor's Hammer'

According to Dr.Otto Wagner, professor of aviation mechanics at the Technical University in Munich, the Me 262 was generally certainly capable of supersonic speed!

The archives of the "Wright-Patterson Field" in Dayton (Ohio)USA, have an old Me 262 Handbook, On page 13 it says thats .... "at a soft dive of 20-30 degrees" the Me 262 reaches a speed of 950 km/h. ", At around 1.000 km/h controls fail". "

Prof.Karl Dötsch (age 90 years) a former employee of the German Aviation Research Institute in Berlin-Adlershof adds that in 1944 he was called into a secret project. He started research on mysterious incidents of the 262 - loss of stability and flight control - which, during a subsequent test-flight he caused his 262 to duplicate the loss of controls while buffeting.

At Mach 0.85 the wings started vibrating and flapping, the flightstick became immoveable and only with a pressure of 70 Kp the plane could be levelled out.

So, who is it? Who went supersonic first? 24 year old Privat Hans Guido Mutke, (1945) in a desperate attempt to help his partner?..... or was it Col Pete Everest in his YF-100 (Super Sabre) at Edwards AFB (1953) ?


http://www.angelfire.com/biz/cqradio/page7.html

MFG, Sven
Last edited by Trommelfeuer on 17 Apr 2003 22:03, edited 1 time in total.
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....

Postby Trommelfeuer on 17 Apr 2003 21:54

Ups, double-post again...Oh Mann! :oops: Sorry folks!

"With the firepower concentrated in its nose and consisting of four 30 mm cannons, it was truly awesome. It could chew through a wing of a B-17 Flying Fortress in one burst." - Oberleutnant Franz Stigler, JV-44


photo-source:http://www.kotfsc.com/aircraft/me-262.htm

MFG, Sven
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Yea

Postby ChristopherPerrien on 17 Apr 2003 22:10

I believe Me-262's broke the sound barrier. The way most of the accounts read they seem "Honest". On similar note I have heard a story of a P-47 in a dive doing the same thing ( pilot interview on TV). Go figure!!!!!!
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Postby Maple 01 on 18 Apr 2003 00:01

believe Me-262's broke the sound barrier. The way most of the accounts read they seem "Honest". On similar note I have heard a story of a P-47 in a dive doing the same thing ( pilot interview on TV). Go figure!!!!!!


Sounds more like the onset of 'compressibility' to me, the closer an aircraft gets to the speed of sound the greater the build-up of pressure waves, hence the shuddering. Aircraft of the mid 1940s would not be able to go supersonic no-matter how good the (jet) engines were, even the F-102, an early 1950s aircraft had to be totally redesigned to take into account the latest aerodynamisists work before they were capable of M 1. I think it highly unlikely that a Me-262 or a Thunderbolt could break the sound barrier, the F-86 was a much cleaner design with more thrust and a lot less drag, and could only just do it. He may have been doing M 0.96 or so but probably not Mach1

Regards

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ME-262

Postby ChristopherPerrien on 18 Apr 2003 00:20

The Me-262 is one of those expamples of german engineering that just goes beyond what was expected, it is in that light that I believe that it surpassed the sound barrier plus the stories sonic "booms" occuring by eyewitnesses.

Our sabre just like the original migs were just copies or imitations of jet that Germany designed and or actually built. If you accpt that either way the ME-262 was the reason the sound barrier was broken. Much can be said even of our weapons of today like the F-22 as being copies from some still classified captured German plans. Hell I expect one day to see a Horten flying wing to become the premier air superiority fighter. It is also true that our whole moon space program was founded on the Atlas missle the first ICBM which was nothing more than a scaled up 2-stage V2
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