Luftwaffe's Sturmoviks
- Reich Ruin
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Luftwaffe's Sturmoviks
I heard that during the war in Russia the Luftwaffe captured several early model Il-2 Sturmoviks as early as 1941 . Yet they didn't show any interest in the design despite the fact they were looking for a new, sturdy yet deadly ground attack aircraft that could knock out tanks and give the infantry some close support.
The Ju-87 Stuka was good but not perfect for ground attack ( ie: level bombing, straffing, etc ) since it was designed specifically for dive bombing ( I could be wrong but that's what Im getting ). The Hs 129 despite being a neat idea and design was not suitable for the task so......... why not learn from the Russians who built one of the best ground pounders of the war ? Why didn't the Luftwaffe take more interest and create an answer to the Sturmovik so they could unleash a "black death" of their own ?
The Ju-87 Stuka was good but not perfect for ground attack ( ie: level bombing, straffing, etc ) since it was designed specifically for dive bombing ( I could be wrong but that's what Im getting ). The Hs 129 despite being a neat idea and design was not suitable for the task so......... why not learn from the Russians who built one of the best ground pounders of the war ? Why didn't the Luftwaffe take more interest and create an answer to the Sturmovik so they could unleash a "black death" of their own ?
- Csaba Becze
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Re: Luftwaffe's Sturmoviks
Because the Il-2 was not as good, as you think (and as the Soviet propaganda suggested)Reich Ruin wrote:I heard that during the war in Russia the Luftwaffe captured several early model Il-2 Sturmoviks as early as 1941 . Yet they didn't show any interest in the design despite the fact they were looking for a new, sturdy yet deadly ground attack aircraft that could knock out tanks and give the infantry some close support.
The Ju-87 Stuka was good but not perfect for ground attack ( ie: level bombing, straffing, etc ) since it was designed specifically for dive bombing ( I could be wrong but that's what Im getting ). The Hs 129 despite being a neat idea and design was not suitable for the task so......... why not learn from the Russians who built one of the best ground pounders of the war ? Why didn't the Luftwaffe take more interest and create an answer to the Sturmovik so they could unleash a "black death" of their own ?
The 'black death' was a bit dumb name from the Soviet propapganda also (it was not called by the German infantry in this name)
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- Csaba Becze
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I am afraid, that just in your imagination.richardrli wrote:Csaba Becze, the Il-2 was better than anything the Germans had, thousands of German tanks and armored vehicles were destroyed by them.
The Il-2's could not destroy 'thousands of German tanks and armoured vehicles'.
The best sources regarding the Soviet successes against the German AFV's the Soviet reports, when they investigated the AFV wrecks on the captured territory, and the German loss statistics. You should check them... It was a very rare event, when the Il-2's could destroy totally any German AFV's.
BTW I don't know for 100% sure a SINGLE Hungarian AFV, which was destroyed by the Il-2's during the war (IMHO the Hungarian AFV loss by the Il-2's was ZERO).
And this statement 'the Il-2 was better, than anything the Germans had' is simply ridiculous.
So, the Il-2 was better, than the Fw 190F-8(and other Fw 190 assault versions), Hs 129B-2 or the Ju 87 D-G variants? Bah...
IMHO the Il-2 was really succesful in only one role: strafing the accumulated NON armoured vehicles (but with the same armament, other planes could do it with the same result also).
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Il-2 wasn't an anti-tank weapon, but it was ground support aircraft. Il-2 was effective against light armor. Against middle tanks it was less effective and absolutely useless against heavy tanks, because its angle of attack was too little. One good book with big collection of photos is published in Russia "Ил-2 Штурмовик: Суровая школа". I think it's first attempt to analyse actions and losses of Ils. I have few photos of results of attacks from http://www.battlefield.ru.
P.S.: Activity of Hungarian AFP also was something near ZERO.
P.S.: Activity of Hungarian AFP also was something near ZERO.
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- Pz Kpw 38(t) destroyed by RS-128 from Il-2.
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- Marder destroyed by Il-2
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- RS-82 hit in Sd Kfz 250
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- Csaba Becze
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I am afraid, that your knowledge is not enough, to decide it. Do you know anything about the Hungarian Armoured Units in World War II?RoW wrote:P.S.: Activity of Hungarian AFP also was something near ZERO.
BTW the Hungarian Army used Pz Kpw 38(t)'s also and the VVS attacked them intensively for months, without any success (altough it was a light tank).
Nice phrase! Why only months? How about years? I know enough about Hungarian tanks. For example about middle tanks:Csaba Becze wrote:BTW the Hungarian Army used Pz Kpw 38(t)'s also and the VVS attacked them intensively for months, without any success (altough it was a light tank).RoW wrote:P.S.: Activity of Hungarian AFP also was something near ZERO.
In April, 1944 2-nd tank division has been sent on front, incorporating 120 " Turan I " and 55 " Тuran II ". The Hungarian middle tanks had Baptism of fire on April, 17th when the division counterattacked Soviet units under Коlomiya. Tank attack on almost impassable wooded and mountainous terrain was unsuccesfull. On April, 26 advancement of the Hungarian armies has been stopped. Losses - 30 tanks. In September the division participated in fights at Tordy, has had the big losses and has been transfered to a rear.
1-st cavalry division (56 "Turan I") in the summer of 1944 took part in heavy fights in eastern Poland, retreating to Warsaw. Having lost all tanks, division in September has been transfered to Hungary.
Since September, 1944 124 "Тuran" of 1-st tank division were at war in Transylvania. In December fights were already in Hungary near Debrecen and Nyiregyhaza. Beside that, both other mentioned divisions participated too. On October, 30 fights for Budapest, have begun. 2-nd tank division was encircled in the city, and 1-st tank and 1-st cavalry divisions fought to the north from it. In cruel fights nesr lake Balaton in March - April, 1945 the Hungarian tank armies have been completely destroyed. All "Turan" have been destroyed or seized by the Soviet Army.
Interesting, how in so critical situation Hungarians could collect statistics about the causes of destruction of their tanks?
(By the way - sorry for my bad English )
- Reich Ruin
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Well I heard that the Hs 129 was not suitable because it had little room in the cockpit ( the revi gunsight was mounted outside the cockpit ! ) and it had insufficent speed and nimbleness. The IL-2 had adequete weaponry to take out at least a Panzer IV with rockets and a good bombload not to mention the guns are pretty good.
The game IL-2 Sturmovik Forgotten Battles is well researched and Iv'e flown the Sturmovik in it. It's real good for tank busting and ground strafing. Although I don't know for sure if the Hs 129 was as bad as people say since the Bf110 can do the job well so any aircraft more suited to the task like the Hs 129 should do the job better than the Stuka or FW 190. If I were a pilot my only gripe would have been the engines and the lack of space in the Hs 129's cockpit.
The game IL-2 Sturmovik Forgotten Battles is well researched and Iv'e flown the Sturmovik in it. It's real good for tank busting and ground strafing. Although I don't know for sure if the Hs 129 was as bad as people say since the Bf110 can do the job well so any aircraft more suited to the task like the Hs 129 should do the job better than the Stuka or FW 190. If I were a pilot my only gripe would have been the engines and the lack of space in the Hs 129's cockpit.
- Csaba Becze
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Probably it's enough for you as a knowledge, but your statements are mostly wrong.RoW wrote:Nice phrase! Why only months? How about years? I know enough about Hungarian tanks. For example about middle tanks:Csaba Becze wrote:BTW the Hungarian Army used Pz Kpw 38(t)'s also and the VVS attacked them intensively for months, without any success (altough it was a light tank).RoW wrote:P.S.: Activity of Hungarian AFP also was something near ZERO.
In April, 1944 2-nd tank division has been sent on front, incorporating 120 " Turan I " and 55 " Тuran II ". The Hungarian middle tanks had Baptism of fire on April, 17th when the division counterattacked Soviet units under Коlomiya. Tank attack on almost impassable wooded and mountainous terrain was unsuccesfull. On April, 26 advancement of the Hungarian armies has been stopped. Losses - 30 tanks. In September the division participated in fights at Tordy, has had the big losses and has been transfered to a rear.
1-st cavalry division (56 "Turan I") in the summer of 1944 took part in heavy fights in eastern Poland, retreating to Warsaw. Having lost all tanks, division in September has been transfered to Hungary.
Since September, 1944 124 "Тuran" of 1-st tank division were at war in Transylvania. In December fights were already in Hungary near Debrecen and Nyiregyhaza. Beside that, both other mentioned divisions participated too. On October, 30 fights for Budapest, have begun. 2-nd tank division was encircled in the city, and 1-st tank and 1-st cavalry divisions fought to the north from it. In cruel fights nesr lake Balaton in March - April, 1945 the Hungarian tank armies have been completely destroyed. All "Turan" have been destroyed or seized by the Soviet Army.
Interesting, how in so critical situation Hungarians could collect statistics about the causes of destruction of their tanks?
(By the way - sorry for my bad English )
Hungarian tanks took part in the fight on the eastern front in 1941, 1942 and 1943 also. The mentioned date, 17 April was the baptism of fire of the Turan tanks, not the Hungarian Armoured units!!!! BTW the counterattack was partially succesful.
Bah... I don't continue to correct your mistakes or that 'discussion'.
This is the main problem with this forum: many visitors with huge self reliance but without real knowledge.
- Csaba Becze
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The Hs 129 was a fairly good assault plane and you should forget the myth around the Il-2.Reich Ruin wrote:Well I heard that the Hs 129 was not suitable because it had little room in the cockpit ( the revi gunsight was mounted outside the cockpit ! ) and it had insufficent speed and nimbleness. The IL-2 had adequete weaponry to take out at least a Panzer IV with rockets and a good bombload not to mention the guns are pretty good.
The game IL-2 Sturmovik Forgotten Battles is well researched and Iv'e flown the Sturmovik in it. It's real good for tank busting and ground strafing. Although I don't know for sure if the Hs 129 was as bad as people say since the Bf110 can do the job well so any aircraft more suited to the task like the Hs 129 should do the job better than the Stuka or FW 190. If I were a pilot my only gripe would have been the engines and the lack of space in the Hs 129's cockpit.
I know well the Forgotten Battles also (just check the manual of that game and you will find my name too)
BTW I have discussed the Il-2's performance with Oleg Maddox also (he is an excellent engineer and a very nice fellow).
Read it again. It was an example! But I am agree what the main problem with this forum: many visitors with huge self reliance but without real knowledge. You have no knowledge about history of Il-2, VVS units and so on. Your only argument - it's all Soviet/Bolshevik/Russian propaganda! I read many post-Cold War books (not Soviet propaganda) about this plane and talked with its pilots. And I think actions of this planes were more considerable than actions of all Hungarian Armoured units and it deserves more serious investigations than "it's all myth and propaganda:".
If you have such good knowledge of Il-2 operations then you must know the number of tanks destroyed by them (the number of tanks plus self propelled guns without the number of armored cars and halftracks). Can you tell us this number?RoW wrote:I read many post-Cold War books (not Soviet propaganda) about this plane and talked with its pilots. And I think actions of this planes were more considerable than actions of all Hungarian Armoured units and it deserves more serious investigations than "it's all myth and propaganda:".