french railway gun

[jopaerya]

Looking at some earlier post one of these guns should be a 274 mm Mle 1887/93 gun , could the German
name of this gun be the 27.4 cm K (E) 591(f) there were 3 guns on stock in 31-10-1944 .

It's very hard to read but from the site from Greg Heuer you can see the Canon de 274 cm Mle 1893-1896
in the "Kennblätter fremden Geräts" http://www.one35th.com/model/k5/k5_gh-others2.htm

Regards Jos

[Manuferey]

The gun has been identified as a "274 mm Mle 1887 à glissement Schneider" by Guy François in a French forum. It was actually one of the "274 mm Mle 1893-86 à glissement" where the worn-out barrel had been replaced by a Mle 1887 barrel after 1917.

I think that the German "Beute" designation was 27,4 cm Kanone (E) 594 (f).

I don't know the German unit that used them. According to Guy François:
- the 274 mm Mle 1887 were not mobilized by France in 1940 and were used mainly for training at Mourmelon proving grounds
- the Germans did not seem to have deployed them in combat batteries.

So, they could have been used for training in E.100.

Emmanuel

[EPOCH3]

Hi! I only could do a quick search but I have a similar photo of the same two guns purchased from from Karl Pawlas and it is labeled as a 28,5 cm K (E) 605(f) Mle 17. Mr Pawlas could have been wrong and I will certainly defer to Mr. François as the expert. I checked my
copy of D50/6 and unfortunately it uses the exact same photo as the 27,4cm K (E) 592(f) Mle 17. Kind Regards

[jopaerya]

Thanks Emmanuel and Greg

Maybe we can try it on a other way , from orignal documents

27.4 cm K.(E) 591 (f) = max range 26.1 km.
27.4 cm K.(E) 592 (f) = max range 29.1 km.
27.4 cm K.(E) 594 (f) = max range ????
Canon de 274 mm Mle 87/93 = max range 26.4 km.

Regards Jos

[EPOCH3]

Sorry Sir - my copy of D50/6 (1941 with 1942 updates) does not reflect presence of 27.4 cm K.(E) 594 (f).
Data point however - my copy of Ord doc No. 2024 (A Report on The Characteristics Scope and Utility, ETC of Railway artillery (Vol II)) lists 27.4 cm gun, L40, sliding mount, 1893-96 max range as 27 Km and Muzzle Velocity of 815M/Sec

[EPOCH3]

Waffen des Ausland (D98/6+) indicates Cannon 274 Mod 1887/93 as L45 and Range of 26,000m

[Manuferey]

Hi! I only could do a quick search but I have a similar photo of the same two guns purchased from from Karl Pawlas and it is labeled as a 28,5 cm K (E) 605(f) Mle 17. Mr Pawlas could have been wrong and I will certainly defer to Mr. François as the expert. I checked my
copy of D50/6 and unfortunately it uses the exact same photo as the 27,4cm K (E) 592(f) Mle 17. Kind Regards

The 285 mm Mle 1917 was also originally a 274 mm Mle 1893-96 where the original worn-out 274 mm barrel was replaced by a 285 mm barrel after 1917. I have not found a way yet to distinguish externally these different guns (274 mm Mle 1893-96, 274 mm Mle 1917 and 285 mm Mle 1917 "à glissement") that use the same basic carriage.

Emmanuel

[EPOCH3]

I believe this is partial data wrt barrel Mod discussion.
Hope this helps.
Regards

[Manuferey]

Interesting to see how the Germans wrote the designation: the French actually used “-“ and not “/” e.g. 1893-96 and not 93/96 or 70-84 and not 70/84. In addition, the French used simply “274 mm Mle 1887” and not “274 mm Mle 1887-93”.

Emmanuel

[jopaerya]

The 27.1 km. of the 28.5 cm K.(E) 605 (f) fits with my list a max range of thse guns ,
Greg you told us that the photo of them 27.4 cm K.(E) 591 (f) is the same as the 592 (f)
but is the data also the same ( Maximum range ) ??

Regards Jos

P.S. Could the number 593 (f) also be a other 27.4 cm guns ??

[jopaerya]

A blurry picture's from Ebay from the same basic carriage as the one's we have seen here above .

Regards Jos

[EPOCH3]

Hi Jos - I should have been a little more clear in my previous posting in that the 27,4cm K (E) 592(f) Mle 17 picture and the 28,5 cm K (E) 605(f) Mle 17 picture are identical. Note, for both of the above, the photo is oddly on the reverse side of the page with no picture for either of these on the front side of the page as is typical.

27,4cm K (E) 591(f) Mle 17 does have a different picture than the above (on the normal front side of the page) that is obviously a very similar gun. Very poor picture however so hard to make out details. I will try and get scans of these when I get a minute to show you better.

D50/6 for 28,5 cm K (E) 605(f) Mle 17 shows Vo at 740m/s with 27.1Km as Max range

Regards

[EPOCH3]

BTW - for what it's worth. There is the 27.4cm K Modell 1893/96 Schneider und Batignolles that
has the same basic "upgrade language" as my previous post indicating that it too was modified to 285mm that resulted in Max Range going from 24Km as a 27.4cm L/40 to 27.1Km as a 28.5cm. This is not in D50/6 but is in Waffen des Ausland D98/6+

[EPOCH3]

Here is quick look at 27,4 cm K (E) 591(f) Mle 87 u 93
with the same basic picture from another manual (is edited slightly differently but shows a bit better detail).

BTW - there was a cut a paste error with previous post (sorry I did not notice until now)
was: 27,4cm K (E) 591(f) Mle 17 (592 was Mle 17)
Should have been: 27,4cm K (E) 591(f) Mle 87 u 93

Regards

[jopaerya]

Thanks Greg

A short recap , any comments or corrections are welcome

27.4 cm K.(E) 591 (f) = max range 26.1 km. = Mat. 274 mm Mle 87/93 sur affut-truc a glissement ( raye a gauche )
27.4 cm K.(E) 592 (f) = max range 29.1 km. = Mat. 274 mm Mle 17 sur affut-truc a glissement ( raye a droite )
27.4 cm K.(E) 593 (f) =
27.4 cm K.(E) 594 (f) =
28.5 cm K.(E) 605 (f) = max range 27.1 km. = Mat. 274 mm Mle 87/93 sur affut-truc a glissement {rebord}

Regards Jos