5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19
Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19
Hi Malcolm
Now I need to both agree and disgree re: Motor power to M19's. At Stp.Rotenstein there is no evidence of three phase cable adjacent to the flywheel housing. However the control panel from Stp. Grossfels does have its cables fitted.
There is another difference. On this example both right hand compartments are labelled 380 V Three phase, whereas the upper compartment at Rotenstein is labelled Raum-beleuchtg.24V which is your low voltage lighting.
Also noted the second fuse box located in the entrance at Grossfels which must be supply the extra cable for the motor.
Regards
Paul
Now I need to both agree and disgree re: Motor power to M19's. At Stp.Rotenstein there is no evidence of three phase cable adjacent to the flywheel housing. However the control panel from Stp. Grossfels does have its cables fitted.
There is another difference. On this example both right hand compartments are labelled 380 V Three phase, whereas the upper compartment at Rotenstein is labelled Raum-beleuchtg.24V which is your low voltage lighting.
Also noted the second fuse box located in the entrance at Grossfels which must be supply the extra cable for the motor.
Regards
Paul
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Re:
Hi Paul,
Very interesting and thought provoking!
If you look back to the 1st couple of pages on this thread, Jos posted a document showing that the 2 x 633 constructed in the Kernwerk at Ijmuiden (now demolished) were made fully automatic. The following quote was posted by Peter;
It is then possible that an ammunition hoist was added (like the Kernwerk examples) but it would have needed to have been of a shorter design to the examples used in the Westwall (as shown in the 'manual') as the lower platform was provided at Grossfels and would have got in the way. Its a shame that the upper platform was not still in place when the turret room was excavated as this would have showed if one had indeed been fitted.
The 1st photo shows the wiring in the gas lock of the M19 bunker on Jersey. It has 2 fuse boxes like the example at Grossfels. The left hand box with 3 cables coming out of the top which serves the lighting circuits. While the right box is 3 faze and was for the supply of the 2 air pump motors. This set-up seems to be normal if the air pumps had electric motors provided, although it may suggest more in this case.
The 2nd photo shows the gas-cut off flywheel box in Grossfels. The piece of flat 'U' shaped metal to the right of the lower platform 'chunk' is interesting. One was also found in Stp. Corbiere's M19 and I have not been able to identify where it was used on the M19 weapon from either plans or photos. Your info regarding the 380v wiring at Grossfels brings up the question that it may have been to do with the installation of motors to make the M19 fully automatic or the ammunition hoist.
There is also a tantalising written record regarding Herr Horst Herrmann, who was mostly stationed at Stp. Corbiere from September 1943 to the Liberation. He took part in a live firing exercise of the M19 mortar and recalled that once they had loaded the weapon they would all run outside "leaving one man to fire the weapon" so they could watch the steam of mortars exploding on the chosen target! This has always bugged me as (until your 380v evidence posted above) if only one man was left to fire the M19 he would have to be seated on the weapon, but a second man would be needed to turn the flywheel to manually power the firing mechanism etc. If only one man was left to fire the M19 then it would indicate that the firing mechanism was being operated electrically.
Regards,
Malcolm
Very interesting and thought provoking!
If you look back to the 1st couple of pages on this thread, Jos posted a document showing that the 2 x 633 constructed in the Kernwerk at Ijmuiden (now demolished) were made fully automatic. The following quote was posted by Peter;
Looking through the photos I have of the M19 at Grossfels, I can not see any difference in the way the cables are cleated or any electrical cables near the flywheel box. But if the flywheel box was then later provided with a electrical motor then a cable could have easily been joined into the 3 faze wiring supplying the 2 air pump motors in the ventilation room at either the point where the cable splits between each pump or into one of the motor on/off switches. It is possible the added 3 faze cable could have been attached/tied to existing cables without the need to drill holes for the cleats, sadly the Germans did a good job of painting the walls and no 'foot-prints' of the cables are visible As an example, perhaps, the 631b at Millbrook (Jersey) had a rather dubiously thin wire connected into the bulb holder of the ventilation room's bulkhead light to supply power to the 10m3 air pump which had a motor fitted at a later date! )P. Heijkoop wrote:Hai,
Beside the motor I also think it's safe to conclude that the ammolift was also placed.
In the fine book about Seefront Ijmuiden Ruud Pols mentiones a document that states that in 1944 the ammolifts were "still" failing. However on Jos' list it says vollautomatisch... Ergo, the lifts were most likely placed during 1944....
Nice to finally have some data that confirms the placement of a fully automatic weapon..
It is then possible that an ammunition hoist was added (like the Kernwerk examples) but it would have needed to have been of a shorter design to the examples used in the Westwall (as shown in the 'manual') as the lower platform was provided at Grossfels and would have got in the way. Its a shame that the upper platform was not still in place when the turret room was excavated as this would have showed if one had indeed been fitted.
The 1st photo shows the wiring in the gas lock of the M19 bunker on Jersey. It has 2 fuse boxes like the example at Grossfels. The left hand box with 3 cables coming out of the top which serves the lighting circuits. While the right box is 3 faze and was for the supply of the 2 air pump motors. This set-up seems to be normal if the air pumps had electric motors provided, although it may suggest more in this case.
The 2nd photo shows the gas-cut off flywheel box in Grossfels. The piece of flat 'U' shaped metal to the right of the lower platform 'chunk' is interesting. One was also found in Stp. Corbiere's M19 and I have not been able to identify where it was used on the M19 weapon from either plans or photos. Your info regarding the 380v wiring at Grossfels brings up the question that it may have been to do with the installation of motors to make the M19 fully automatic or the ammunition hoist.
There is also a tantalising written record regarding Herr Horst Herrmann, who was mostly stationed at Stp. Corbiere from September 1943 to the Liberation. He took part in a live firing exercise of the M19 mortar and recalled that once they had loaded the weapon they would all run outside "leaving one man to fire the weapon" so they could watch the steam of mortars exploding on the chosen target! This has always bugged me as (until your 380v evidence posted above) if only one man was left to fire the M19 he would have to be seated on the weapon, but a second man would be needed to turn the flywheel to manually power the firing mechanism etc. If only one man was left to fire the M19 then it would indicate that the firing mechanism was being operated electrically.
Regards,
Malcolm
"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/
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Thanks to Peter's quote, and also MNO KI's posts above, ( ) showing that a 3 faze (380 volt) electrical supply was provided to the Schwungscheibe (flywheel) I can confirm that quite a few M19s were indeed electrically powered and thus fully automatic weapons!P. Heijkoop wrote: Just checked my sources and indeed in the lower part of the Schwungscheibe an electromotor could be placed.
This would switch on when turning the handle from Hand- to Motorantrieb. However, the currency for this motor was not generated by the turn-wheel.
As Peter states, an electric motor (3 faze powered) was installed in the base of the Schwungscheibe which would revolve the drive shaft (instead of a soldier turning the flywheel manually). The power cable came in from above, and first went through a box (presumably a fuse box) which is always located on 2 bolts (9.5cm apart) found mounted high up above the distribution/junction box located on the side of the Schwungscheibe.
One Stp. Corbiere's soldiers, who took part in firing the M19 there, once said that one man (in the turret) was left to fire the mortar while everyone else ran outside to watch the mortar bombs exploding on the target rock. This implies that the weapon was being electrically powered.
The mystery is how did the cable get to this fuse box as it was fitted as standard and several have evidence that the 3 faze supply was installed yet no sign of fixings for the cable to get here!
The 1st photo below (this M19 is constructed in 'MIRROR'!) shows the 3 faze supply cable coming in on the top right, although cut off, it then looped under and into the fuse box before running down into the distribution/junction box on the side of the schwungscheibe.
Regards,
Malcolm
- Attachments
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- The top cables (detached) are the electrical feed for the motor in the schwungscheibe. The wiring set up here is not done in the standard way.
- hler.jpg (53.39 KiB) Viewed 2053 times
"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/
Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19
Hello
Added a photo that show the cupola for the M-19 at the uboutbunker Bruno in Bergen.
Seems like its placed on something buildt in concrete. Wonder what this would have been if finished.
Picture Marcus/UIB.
regards
stril
Added a photo that show the cupola for the M-19 at the uboutbunker Bruno in Bergen.
Seems like its placed on something buildt in concrete. Wonder what this would have been if finished.
Picture Marcus/UIB.
regards
stril
Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19
Hello stril,
very nice picture!
Every turret without a steel base were placed on concrete columns, connected to the baseplate, before binding the concrete reinforcement and before concreting the rooms and the ceiling. For turrets with steelbase, the base was directly connected to the baseplate.
The colums will later in the building process become part of room underneath the steel turret. As a result of the time difference between concreting the columns and the rest of the room, there is a lack of permanent joint between these to parts. 70 years later, water inleakage is the consequence of this.
b00nfire
very nice picture!
Every turret without a steel base were placed on concrete columns, connected to the baseplate, before binding the concrete reinforcement and before concreting the rooms and the ceiling. For turrets with steelbase, the base was directly connected to the baseplate.
The colums will later in the building process become part of room underneath the steel turret. As a result of the time difference between concreting the columns and the rest of the room, there is a lack of permanent joint between these to parts. 70 years later, water inleakage is the consequence of this.
b00nfire
Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19
HelloEvery turret without a steel base were placed on concrete columns, connected to the baseplate, before binding the concrete reinforcement and before concreting the rooms and the ceiling. For turrets with steelbase, the base was directly connected to the baseplate.
The colums will later in the building process become part of room underneath the steel turret. As a result of the time difference between concreting the columns and the rest of the room, there is a lack of permanent joint between these to parts. 70 years later, water inleakage is the consequence of this.
Thank you b00nfire, interesting information
regards
Stril
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19
Very nice photo! Thanks stril! What's UIB?
Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19
Marcus is the picture collection of the University in Bergen(UIB). Link below.What's UIB?
LOts of pictures, also lots of pictures taken from the air. Some are interesting to see how things was some years ago.
Added two pictures, one from MFB Olsvik after the war, and one showing the flakpositions on the roof of Bruno.
regards
stril
http://marcus.uib.no/home
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19
Very nice. Thanks stril.
Re:
Sadly, no one picked up on this brilliant idea?M19 MADMAL wrote: Prehaps we could compile a list of all the M19 bunkers along the Atlantik/West and East walls
Such as bunker type, is the weapon and/or cupola left, is the site buried/accessable etc, a mirror image or SK and any other interesting features
Prehaps try to make a 'devinitive' list
I will start the list with the examples in the Channel Islands and prehaps others will add??
Have anyone made a list or similar, showing the different ways a M19 might have been installed (ie not using a R633 bunker)? What was the minimum demands for a M19-position?
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19
Hi all,jopaerya wrote:Hello All
It's a drawing of a conveyor belt for a M 19 ?? drawing is from the Polish book "Miedzyrzecki Rejon Umocniony"
Regards Jos
Jos posted the below plan which does indeed show the fully automatic version of the M19 Mortar!
The photo appeared in the CIOS Guernsey newsletter No.51 and shows the same cup system for holding the 5cm bombs as they are conveyed to the weapon
Looks like the bombs are then taken up the central mount/tube to the weapon!
Regards,
Malcolm
"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/
Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19
Great picture Malcolm
Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19
Very nice sheet! From which Roll is it - or if it isn't, whats the National Archives Identifier?
I just tried to figure out how the drawing matches with the B-Werk Besseringe M19 room.
It seems to fit in there.
I just tried to figure out how the drawing matches with the B-Werk Besseringe M19 room.
It seems to fit in there.