L 487B

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jopaerya
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L 487B

#1

Post by jopaerya » 07 Jun 2008, 14:26

Hello All

Who can help me with this according to Rudi Rolf the L 487B use only 1300 M3 concrete
but on this buildingplan the L 487B used 2550 M3 just the same as the normal L 487 .
Does anyone know were the 1300 M3 came from is that from the planned L 487B at Zeist
Baupunkt 200 ???

Regards Jos
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SES
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Re: L 487B

#2

Post by SES » 09 Jun 2008, 09:24

Hi Jos,
Here are my two bits.
http://www.gyges.dk/Type%20Caesar.htm

Could you possibly scan and post the RR info please.
bregds
SES


jopaerya
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Re: L 487B

#3

Post by jopaerya » 09 Jun 2008, 22:51

Hello Ses

Sorry for the delay but football , the plannung is from the 89 A.K. the L 487B and L 486
were planned for Hamster , the other L 486 were planned for Bremse and Pony .
Here the information from the book from Rudi Rolf .

Regards Jos
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Klaas
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Re: L 487B

#4

Post by Klaas » 10 Jun 2008, 00:47

Hi,

Strangely the amount of 2550 cbm mentioned on the 89AK Plannungslist for L 487B corresponds with the standard L 487, which also was 2550 cbm... Maybe they (wrongly) used for the list the amount for L 487 and not the actual amount for L 487B?

But even more strange is that the Divisionsgefechtstand at Zeist (the one everybody call the L 487B) looks to be much larger than 1300 or even 2550 cbm concrete? Added to this is that the location of L 487B at Baufortschrittskarte of Zeist does not match with the location of the actual build Divisionsgefechtstand. Furthermore the Baufortschrittskarte of Zeist, dated 25-03-1945, indicates the L 487B was 'im Bau'. As far as ik now the Divisiongefechtsstand Zeist was completed in 1944.

So isn't it more than likely the Divisonsgefechtstand at Zeist is not the type L 487B? And that a L 487B was planned a few hundred meters nearby (and maybe im bau) in 1945? But if this theory is wrong and the L 487B was the Divisionsgefechtstand, why oh why did they plan to build a Divisionsgefechtstand at Hamster?

To my opinion the L 487B was not the Divisionsgefechtstand type of bunker but a Funkmessgeräte Auswertung Bunker. This would fit the name Cäsar not related to the Divisionsgefechtstand but nicely in the list of Funkmessgeräte Auswertung bunkers: L 479 'Anton', L 487 'Bertha' & L 487B 'Cäsar'? That is 'Anton', 'Bertha', 'Cäsar', looks like an ABC to me!

Wouldn't be suprised if one day the 1300 cbm L 487B turned out to be a reduced version of the 2550 cbm L 487 with only the top floor of the L 487 and a Seeburgtisch cellar...

Best regards, Klaas

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Re: L 487B

#5

Post by jopaerya » 10 Jun 2008, 07:19

Hi Klaas

Were are on the same line of thinking about the big bunker at Zeist , I think the planned L 487B
at Baupunkt 200 ought to be used as JaFu bunker just like St Brias , Breney and Rennes .
What the B means is stil a mystery to me , maybe some small adaption ?????

Regards Jos

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Re: L 487B

#6

Post by SES » 10 Jun 2008, 07:46

Hi Jos and Klaas,
I agree that a L 487B certainly could be a simplyfied version with the top floor only.

May I recall the quote from Hoffmann II/1:
"Der Bunker Cäsar ist ein Korps- und Divisions Gefechtsstand mit einem Betonvolumen von 4000 cbm Beton und einer Rohbauzeit von 3 Monaten".

I very much doubt the Jafü theory. Jafü Holland was first located at Schpihol and later in a barrack at Deelen, and it was disbanded 11.10.1943, at which time the day-fighter Jafü concept had been abandoned. So it is unlikely that a L 487B could have been planned for a Jafü.

The GefStd of 3 JD at Deelen was abandoned 17 SEP 1944, so it is unlikely that a Ausweich GefStd for the JD could be an explanation.

I JK left Zeist 14.10.1944 so an Ausweich GefStd for I JK will not fit either.

Jos - thanks for the scan, I did not realize that this was your background info.
bregds
SES

jopaerya
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Re: L 487B

#7

Post by jopaerya » 11 Jun 2008, 09:27

Hi Friends

On the plannung of Hamster the L 487B used 2550 M3 just the normal portion ,
I have my doubts about the 1300 m3 from from Rudi book .
To make it more complicated at Baupunkt 233 south of Scheveningen there was
also a Betriebsstand 2500 M3 planned ??? but this one is from mid 1943 .

Regards Jos

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Re: L 487B

#8

Post by Klaas » 11 Jun 2008, 10:47

Hi Jos,

Indeed the 1300 is questionable, would be nice if the source for this value could be found. Another matter that needs confirmation is to what 'Cäsar' is related. According to Hoffmann it related to the Korps/Divisionsgefechtstand, according to the 'blue Rolf' it's related to L 487B Funkmessgeräte Auswertung?

A planned Betriebsstand of 2500 cbm at Baupunkt 233 south of Scheveningen sounds very interesting. tried to find BP 233 at the Baufortschrittkarten, but is not on these maps. Do you might have a map with the location of BP 233? Is it possible the same location as Stellung 'Moritz' at the Kwartellaan?

Best regards, Klaas

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Re: L 487B

#9

Post by jopaerya » 11 Jun 2008, 10:51

Hello Klaas

I think I just found it on the B.F.K. Blatt 23 looks like Rijswijk ( Park Overvoorde )
L 13323 /S.K. . just right of Baupunkt 242 Delft ( 616 )

Regards Jos

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Re: L 487B

#10

Post by Klaas » 11 Jun 2008, 11:44

Hi Jos,

Thanks, found it on BFK 23! So the planned 2500 cbm Betriebsstand is the SK at Overvoorde, used by Ln.Fu.H.Kp.10/2.

Best regards, Klaas

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Re: L 487B

#11

Post by SES » 11 Jun 2008, 13:24

Hi,
This was - almost - Dutch to the rest of us :wink:
bregds
SES

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Re: L 487B

#12

Post by jopaerya » 11 Jun 2008, 13:57

Sorry Ses

Did not do that on purpose , here the drawing with the S.K. Betriebsstelle on the left of the text .

Regards Jos

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Re: L 487B

#13

Post by SES » 11 Jun 2008, 14:05

Hi Jos,
Thanks a lot - just pulling your leg :wink:
bregds
SES

jopaerya
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Re: L 487B

#14

Post by jopaerya » 27 Jun 2009, 10:39

Hello All

Not 100% Fortifications but I am looking for more information on the Funk-Horch Regiment West .
So far I found 4. Funk-Horch Regiment West at Overvoorde ( 162 ) and 5.Funk-Horch Regiment West at
Cap Blanc Nez ( 2-22-54 ) . Also a few troop of 6. Funk-Horch Regiment West ( 0-4-11 ) in Stp. Osnabruck
( Audembert ) with 2 large St bunkers . Any information is welcome , thanks in advance .

Regards Jos

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Re: L 487B

#15

Post by SES » 27 Jun 2009, 11:14

Hi Jos,
Do you know the type of bunkers at Audembert?
bregds
SES

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