twin 8.35 cm V 22

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Dili
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Re: twin 8.35 cm V 22

#31

Post by Dili » 04 Sep 2009, 15:51

I found another ship that might have this gun: Perun an Yugoslavian Navy Tanker but reference i have is 4 guns probably in solitary mounts. The data i have doesn't refers specifically 40/67 only 40mm so it might even be a Bofors but i doubt.

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Excellent that idea of M.39 turned to 40/39 it's probably it.

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Only useful year mentioned is 1934
So it had to be after the ships were commissioned.

User dreadnought in Paluba put this zoomed photo
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2009-09-02_220953.jpg
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Dili
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Re: twin 8.35 cm V 22

#32

Post by Dili » 04 Sep 2009, 16:07

More photos of 83.5 Dual also from Paluba
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2009-09-02_202457.jpg
83.5mm Skoda in Dubrovnik destroyer.
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Dili
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Re: twin 8.35 cm V 22

#33

Post by Dili » 04 Sep 2009, 16:09

One more picture of Dual 83.5mm
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2009-09-02_202400.jpg
83.5mm Skoda in Dubrovnik destroyer
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Dili
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Re: twin 8.35 cm V 22

#34

Post by Dili » 04 Sep 2009, 17:26

Excellent , dreadnought in Paluba found a photo of Zmaj with 40mm/67. He is also convinced that jopaerya picture is from Zmaj. the edge do you think it is possible to pinpoint the location of that jopaerya photo from scenery: mountains and houses?
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2009-09-04_162853.jpg
Zmaj minelayer with Skoda 40/67
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jopaerya
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Re: twin 8.35 cm V 22

#35

Post by jopaerya » 04 Sep 2009, 17:37

Nice job Dili

Now I am 100% sure about the twin 40 mm Skoda gun , thanks the guys on Paluba Forum for the nice pictures .

Regards Jos

David Reasoner
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Re: twin 8.35 cm V 22

#36

Post by David Reasoner » 04 Sep 2009, 21:56

I have been following this thread with considerable interest. Great detective work, all of you! So it would appear that Jos' photo was most likely taken aboard Zmaj, after capture and prior to her April 1942 refit and rearmament:
jopaerya wrote:Image
"The Royal Yugoslav Seaplane Tender and Minelayer Zmaj" by Zvonimir Freivogel in Number 1, Volume 38 (No.1, 2001) of Warship International has this to say about Zmaj's original armament:

"The original armament, installed in 1931, consisted of two single 83.5mm L/55 antiaircraft guns of the M1929 type and two twin 40mm L/67 guns, all from the Czechoslovakian firm Skoda. One 83.5mm gun was carried forward, another at the stern. The 40mm twins were positioned to port and starboard of the "hangar" hatch. The 83.5mm mount, in various versions and models, was a Skoda "specialty" for the RYN and also served as the main armament of the cruiser Dalmacija (six singles) and as the AA battery of the destroyer leader Dubrovnik (one twin mounting). The minelayers of the RYN Orao class were armed with a similar version of this weapon, re-manufactured from older 90mm Austro-Hungarian guns."

IIRC, the re-manufacture of old A-H 90mm guns for the RYN minelayers is also covered in more detail in a previous article in Warship International. I'll try to locate the article if you are interested.

David

Dili
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Re: twin 8.35 cm V 22

#37

Post by Dili » 04 Sep 2009, 23:06

Yes David. It indeed appears to be Zmaj in that period.

Thank you for your offer, i am indeed interested in that Minelayer article, user dreadnought from paluba presented me below photo as an evidence about an upgrade from 90mm to 83.5mm in minelayers. I don't have eye for this things so i can't really say. Maybe the position that the gun is deceives.
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2009-09-02_195025.jpg
Maybe 83.5mm in Yugoslav Minelayer
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David Reasoner
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Re: twin 8.35 cm V 22

#38

Post by David Reasoner » 06 Sep 2009, 23:31

Dili, I located the article in Warship International No.4, 1987; "Yugoslav Naval Guns and the Birth of the Yugoslav Navy 1918-41" by Dipl.-Ing. Rene Greger. The article includes a photo comparison of the unmodified Skoda 90mm and the remanufactured Skoda 83.5mm guns aboard the Galeb class minelayers:

Image

From the article:

"The first Yugoslav warships in full commission weren't those taken over in March 1921, but were six ex-German minesweepers bought in Hamburg as tugs that July. They arrived in Tivat in autumn 1921, the first of them entering service several months later, carrying 90mm AA guns the Austro-Hungarian Navy in the Adriatic never knew. The history of these guns is an interesting one. First destined to be installed on heavy units which were never built, the old navy instead used them in the role of land AA pieces around main naval bases. It was via this route that several of them arrived in Boka Kotorska in 1917-18. Installed in positions occupied by Serb troops at the end of the war, they were not available for seizure by the French occupational forces, and thus became available for use on the purchased minesweepers.

Although the Skoda 90mm/45-caliber gun M.12 was a good weapon by World War I standards, a decade later it was due to be upgraded. In the meantime, the new 83.5mm gun had been introduced in the Yugoslav Royal Navy. As lack of funds prevented the purchase of new guns, and the old existing 90mm guns were in good condition, it was decided to have Skoda rework these to 83.5mm caliber instead. These reworked guns were delivered in 1931. From that time on, at least four of the Galeb class minelayers carried the reworked 83.5mm, with the remainder mounting one or two guns in their original form. This helps to explain the statements in various naval yearbooks of the thirties listing 90mm guns as late as 1941, even after the better informed editors of Weyer's had published correct information in 1939."

David

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The Edge
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Re: twin 8.35 cm V 22

#39

Post by The Edge » 07 Sep 2009, 09:33

Dili wrote: Excellent that idea of M.39 turned to 40/39 it's probably it.
Bad idea, actually - http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_2pounder_m2.htm . (Sorry for wishful thinking, rather than good-old-fashioned research) :oops:


Great info about 9cm Skoda guns, David! :D

jopaerya
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Re: twin 8.35 cm V 22

#40

Post by jopaerya » 07 Sep 2009, 09:48

Thanks David

For this interesting information about the 90 mm and 83.5 mm guns , if I am correct the first photo from Dili
is a 90 mm gun and it looks that the 83.5 cm was custum made because the "normal" 83.5 cm Vz 22/24 don't
have the lump in the middle of the barrel ??

Regards Jos

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Re: twin 8.35 cm V 22

#41

Post by The Edge » 07 Sep 2009, 14:07

Dili wrote:I found another ship that might have this gun: Perun an Yugoslavian Navy Tanker but reference i have is 4 guns probably in solitary mounts. The data i have doesn't refers specifically 40/67 only 40mm so it might even be a Bofors but i doubt.
Since the year of commission is 1939, everything is possible. If I understand correctly http://oceania.pbworks.com/YUGOSLAVIAN%20NAVY , country of origion is Belgia ( :roll: :roll: :roll: ), it have four 40mm AA guns and couple of 12.7mm AAMGs (??? 8O ). Well, Yugoslavia used 12.7mm AAMGs (Italian Breda-Safat) but, AFIK, only on Air Force planes (another acute shortage in Yugoslav armament were aircraft weapons, since there was no domestic production; so Yugoslavia had French, Belgian, British, Italian, German and Polish aircraft MGs in four calibers: .303, 7.92mm, 12.7mm & 13.2mm, plus four 20mm aircraft canons types (!) with three different kinds of ammo - HS-9, HS-404, Oerlikon, MG-FF)

(Btw, FN from Belgium was one of 40mm Bofors manufacturers; Yugoslavia was also buying Browning 13.2mm aircraft machine guns from the same company; theoretically speaking, whole "package" could be done in Belgium (ship, AA guns, AAMGs), only the AAMG caliber info could be mistake, since "Browning 12.7mm" (.50 Cal) is more known to people today than Interwar 13.2mm variant; however, there is a lot of "could be" and "maybe" here).

Dili
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Re: twin 8.35 cm V 22

#42

Post by Dili » 07 Sep 2009, 17:01

Although the Skoda 90mm/45-caliber gun M.12 was a good weapon by World War I standards, a decade later it was due to be upgraded. In the meantime, the new 83.5mm gun had been introduced in the Yugoslav Royal Navy. As lack of funds prevented the purchase of new guns, and the old existing 90mm guns were in good condition, it was decided to have Skoda rework these to 83.5mm caliber instead. These reworked guns were delivered in 1931. From that time on, at least four of the Galeb class minelayers carried the reworked 83.5mm, with the remainder mounting one or two guns in their original form. This helps to explain the statements in various naval yearbooks of the thirties listing 90mm guns as late as 1941, even after the better informed editors of Weyer's had published correct information in 1939."
Many thanks David. With one thread we can sort a major part of Royal Yugoslav gun information. I think we have better info here than all books around.

---
the edge.
About Perun I think Belgium making a whole package is indeed a possibility. But that implies more Bofors bought.

Bad idea, actually - http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_2pounder_m2.htm . (Sorry for wishful thinking, rather than good-old-fashioned research)
I don't think it is a bad idea, it is the only explaination for the author say that Beograd Class has 40/39 since photo evidence shows a Bofors, and Italians say it was Bofors not Vickers. It can not be a 40/39 gun. It is probably a naming mistake.
Here is a picture of Zagreb w/Bofors from Paluba:
Attachments
RazaracZagreb-PAT40mm.jpg
Destroyer Zagreb, Beograd Class with Bofors 40mm Guns
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David Reasoner
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Re: twin 8.35 cm V 22

#43

Post by David Reasoner » 07 Sep 2009, 17:38

jopaerya wrote:Thanks David

For this interesting information about the 90 mm and 83.5 mm guns , if I am correct the first photo from Dili
is a 90 mm gun and it looks that the 83.5 cm was custom made because the "normal" 83.5 cm Vz 22/24 don't
have the lump in the middle of the barrel ??

Regards Jos
That is my opinion as well. Dili's photo appears to be of an original 90mm gun. Apparently the 83.5mm conversion required the addition of a sleeve or collar to the barrel. This and a slight increase in barrel length would appear to be identifying features for the converted guns.

David

David Reasoner
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Re: twin 8.35 cm V 22

#44

Post by David Reasoner » 07 Sep 2009, 17:58

I hate to add further confusion to what is already a confusing thread, but the only "short" version of the 40mm Bofors that I am aware of is the Bofors 40mm L/43 M1937:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/t ... +L43+M1937!

This was fitted in 'disappearing' twin mountings to the Polish submarines Orzel and Sep, and in single 'disappearing' mountings to the Dutch O19 and O20. Most other Dutch submarines carried the 40mm Vickers 'pom-pom' (also in retractable 'disappearing' mountings) rather than the Bofors. The drawing posted in the above thread clearly shows an air-cooled weapon, rather like the land versions of the Bofors, and quite different from most naval Bofors, which were water-cooled.

I am not suggesting that this weapon was actually used by the Yugoslav Navy, but merely submitting it for reference.

David

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The Edge
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Re: twin 8.35 cm V 22

#45

Post by The Edge » 08 Sep 2009, 08:57

Cheers! :x There are two Bofors types, used by Italians, listed M37 and M39 (However, both marked 40/56) :roll:

Thanks David for the info - I saw this one on Overvalwagen, but forgot it, since it was "irrelevant" :oops: (as purely sub armament). Now we have another option to think, but I'm hard to believe that Yu Navy would buy such an item (and gun photo from "Zagreb" shows standard naval L/56 version).

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