12 cm Granatwerfer 42

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Sturm78
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#76

Post by Sturm78 » 12 Aug 2013, 23:25

Hi all,

Another small image of a 12cm mortar. I am not sure if captured russian or German

Image from EBay
Sturm78
Attachments
$T2eC16ZHJF0FFZvw)5I-BR-jG(Qicg~~60_3.jpeg

Draoich
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#77

Post by Draoich » 07 Sep 2013, 13:29

Hi All,
Sturm78's last photo of a 120mm mortar seems to be a genuine 'Action' photo rather than one posed somewhere behind the lines. There is a lot of detail but unfortunately nothing visible to identify the mortar as to whether it is a Soviet model or a German model.

In relation to the previous discussion about the pre-war Brandt 120mm mortar being the design origin of the Soviet PM38 120mm mortar, I have recently found a photo showing the Brandt 1935 'Medium - towed' 120mm mortar. The following photo was taken from http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/f ... ult_UE.php on the 07/09/2013. In my opinion, it shows the pre-war Brandt' Mle.1935 Light 120mm mortar, possibly in 1937. It is incorrectly captioned as 'Image 28 / 30 UE2 infanterie Schlepper tracting a 80mm mortar, Russia 1942', but the mortar is clearly a Brandt 120mm and the photo matches the background shown in other photos of the 1937' Exercises/ trials of the Brandt 120mm mortars. There is a good view of the attached base-plate and this is very similar to the base-plate of the Brandt 1955 model which is shown in several photos taken in the Isreali museum referred to in earlier posts.
BRANDT MLE 35 120mm TOWED FIELD MORTAR.jpg
Regards,
Draoich


Draoich
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#78

Post by Draoich » 07 Sep 2013, 18:36

Hi All,
There is a very interesting post (9/11/ 2003 by David Lehman) which provides information on the pre-war Brandt 120mm mortars. I quote from it as follows:


"David Lehmann on 09 Nov 2003, 11:39

Hello,

1) Brandt 120 mm mortar Mle 1935 :
This heavy mortar had been adopted by the French Army and a squad of 2 mortars should have been issued in each regiment in 1940 according to Ferrrard's book. This mortar was also manufactured in Russia under the
name "120mm Polkovoy Minomyot Obr.1938g". The Russians used it extensively and it has later been copied by the germans for their "120 mm Granatewerfer 1942".
Brandt sold the Kuomintang regime two 120mm mortars and 275 rounds of ammunition in 1938, and these were delivered in March 1939 via Rangoon and the Burma Road. With the fall of France further purchases became impossible and the weapons were turned over to the 21st Arsenal for reverse-engineering. In the meantime, the 50th Arsenal was working on their own design and a competition between the two was held in 1943/44. The 21st Arsenal (Brandt-derived) mortar was chosen in 1944 (hence the designation 33 = 33rd year of the Republic), amid allegations of skullduggery raised by the 50th Arsenal, who claimed that the 21st had intercepted shipments of materials from the US intended for them. In any event, none were actually built until 1945. Production appears to have ceased around 1946, with probably about a hundred built.
The main differences between the Brandt version delivered to China (Brandt developed a bewildering array of 120mm designs during the 1930s) and the Type 33 was that the 21st Arsenal shorted the tube slightly to reduce weight and replaced the spring-carried pneumatic tires with simple wooden spoke wheels on an unsprung axle.
Although some photos can be find the 120mm mortars were probably not issued to the French army before the armistice. They were just one of the list of excellent weapons developed in the 1920's and 30's but not prioritised for early production."

I have attached a photo of one of the Chinese copies of the Brandt 120mm mortar, which I found at
http://milfans.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=611 (accessed 07/07/2013).

Regards,
Draoich
Attachments
vFQUE.jpg
vFQUE.jpg (27.15 KiB) Viewed 2824 times

Draoich
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#79

Post by Draoich » 15 Oct 2013, 23:55

Hi all,

Here is another photo of a 120mm mortar. This was found at http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby. I think it is an example of a 120mm PM-38 Russian mortar being levelled.

Regards,

Draoich
SOVIET PM-38 120mm MORTAR.jpg

Granatwerfer
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#80

Post by Granatwerfer » 25 Oct 2013, 21:37

Hi Guys

Have finally managed to find a breech for the mortar.

I have been told it is dated 1942, but have not yet had a close look to find the date.

Regards

Richard
Attachments
12cm Mortar Breech 25-10-2013.jpg

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YC Chen
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#81

Post by YC Chen » 04 Nov 2013, 13:52

Draoich wrote:Hi All,
There is a very interesting post (9/11/ 2003 by David Lehman) which provides information on the pre-war Brandt 120mm mortars. I quote from it as follows:


"David Lehmann on 09 Nov 2003, 11:39

Hello,

1) Brandt 120 mm mortar Mle 1935 :
This heavy mortar had been adopted by the French Army and a squad of 2 mortars should have been issued in each regiment in 1940 according to Ferrrard's book. This mortar was also manufactured in Russia under the
name "120mm Polkovoy Minomyot Obr.1938g". The Russians used it extensively and it has later been copied by the germans for their "120 mm Granatewerfer 1942".
Brandt sold the Kuomintang regime two 120mm mortars and 275 rounds of ammunition in 1938, and these were delivered in March 1939 via Rangoon and the Burma Road. With the fall of France further purchases became impossible and the weapons were turned over to the 21st Arsenal for reverse-engineering. In the meantime, the 50th Arsenal was working on their own design and a competition between the two was held in 1943/44. The 21st Arsenal (Brandt-derived) mortar was chosen in 1944 (hence the designation 33 = 33rd year of the Republic), amid allegations of skullduggery raised by the 50th Arsenal, who claimed that the 21st had intercepted shipments of materials from the US intended for them. In any event, none were actually built until 1945. Production appears to have ceased around 1946, with probably about a hundred built.
The main differences between the Brandt version delivered to China (Brandt developed a bewildering array of 120mm designs during the 1930s) and the Type 33 was that the 21st Arsenal shorted the tube slightly to reduce weight and replaced the spring-carried pneumatic tires with simple wooden spoke wheels on an unsprung axle.
Although some photos can be find the 120mm mortars were probably not issued to the French army before the armistice. They were just one of the list of excellent weapons developed in the 1920's and 30's but not prioritised for early production."

I have attached a photo of one of the Chinese copies of the Brandt 120mm mortar, which I found at
http://milfans.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=611 (accessed 07/07/2013).

Regards,
Draoich
Hello,

Interesting information! I wonder where Mr Lehmann got the info on the number of Brandt mortars and ammo delivered to China, it is really interesting.

Few people know the row between 21st and 50th Arsenals on 120mm mortar design(again I really want to know where did he get these rarely known info 8O ). From what I read from Chinese document, 50 Arsenal accused the government of rejecting their design in favor of 21st Arsenal's design without any trials, and their prototypes were left rusting in storage.

However his info regarding the production figure is incorrect. More than 200 120mm mortars were produced in 21st Arsenal before WW2 ended(cannot remember the exact figure). And it remained in production throughout the Civil War and was still in production during the Korean War. However during theKorean War it was found that Type 331 was no match for American 4.2in chemical mortar and Soviet 120mm mortar because of its short range. The total production figure is not known but it was at least a few hundreds, perhaps even more than 1,000 considering its long production run.

Sturm78
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#82

Post by Sturm78 » 06 Nov 2013, 00:32

Hi all,

An image from EBay. It is very difficult to say if 12cm sGr.Wfr.42 or 120mm PM38

Sturm78
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12cm Granatwerfer near Demjansk.jpg

Draoich
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#83

Post by Draoich » 10 Nov 2013, 18:37

Hi All,

Sturm78's last posting is indeed dificult to identify. It is similar to many WW2 photos in that they are often taken in poor lighting conditions and rarely show clear detailing for identification. However, I note the the 120mm mortar seems to have its firing lanyard looped up to the yoke of the mortar. This makes sense as otherwise it would be lying in the mud!

I attach a double photo showing both the 120mm PM-38 and the 120mm PM-43 mortars. It is taken from the following website: http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs ... gure35.jpg (accessed 10/11/13).

This photo is also of poor quality and shows little detail but the silhouettes illustrate the main visual difference between these 2 Soviet mortars. The recoil cylinders on the PM-38 are much shorter than those on the PM-43 mortar. The bipod rest attachment is also missing from the PM-38.
chapter1figure35.jpg
Regards,
Draoich

Sturm78
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#84

Post by Sturm78 » 23 Nov 2013, 22:16

Hi all,

120mm PM-38 Soviet mortar captured:

Image from EBay
Sturm78
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120mm PM-38 Russian mortasr captured WWII Photo.jpg

Sturm78
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#85

Post by Sturm78 » 24 Nov 2013, 21:22

Hi mal,

Here, two images posted by Draoich in other thread about the trailers used for the 120mm PM-38 and 107mm PM-38 soviet mortars.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1835939

According to these drawings, I think that the great most the images of this thread (in those pictures you can see the trailer) are 107mm mortars and not 120mm PM-38, which is very strange, as 120mm-38 mortars were much more common that 107mm PM-38 mountain mortars. :? 8O

Here, another example. First, I think in an 120mm PM-38 captured mortar but seeing the trailer now I think 107mm mortar.
Is this correct?

Image from Ebay
Sturm78
Attachments
IZsinMP2hA6t137664634243P5455.jpeg
107mm PM-38 mortar trailer.jpg
120mm PM-38 mortar trailer.jpg

Draoich
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#86

Post by Draoich » 26 Nov 2013, 22:57

Hi All,
I agree with Sturm78 that quite a few wartime photos show 120mm mortars on incorrect trailers. This is also evident today in museum collections. There is a partial explanation in the probability that whatever was available and fitted was going to be used in the Field of war. However, I remember reading something about the Soviet Union producing a unified model trailer. It is in some Russian text book or article and a search on the Internet in the English language does not find it (at least I can't!). Perhaps Ilya or another person who can read Russian could search for details of this unified model mortar trailer. It might explain some of the puzzle. I attach 2 photos (Source is http://www.primeportal.net/armory) of a Soviet 120mm PM-41 on a 107mm KrH 38 trailer in the museum in Poznan. This particular model of mortar was not originally provided with any trailer.
Regards,
Draoich
120mm_regimental_mortar_13_of_32.jpg
120mm_regimental_mortar_02_of_32.jpg

Sturm78
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#87

Post by Sturm78 » 07 Dec 2013, 12:58

Hi all,

An 12cm Granatwerfer 42 german mortar (I think):

Image from EBay
Sturm78
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12cm Granatwerfer 42 mortar in position-,.jpg

Sturm78
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#88

Post by Sturm78 » 17 Dec 2013, 13:19

Hi all,

Another image from EBay of an abandoned soviet mortar. According to Draoich information, this one must be a 107mm mountain mortar.....
But all wartime images that I have seen of heavy soviet mortars show the trailer associated to the 107mm mortar, !! :? :x

No wartime images of the 120mm PM-38 mortar trailer !! :? :x ....It is very rare

Sturm78
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120mm PM38 soviet mortar and limber.jpeg

Draoich
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011, 10:22

Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#89

Post by Draoich » 27 Dec 2013, 23:07

Sturm78 wrote:Hi all,

Another image from EBay of an abandoned soviet mortar. According to Draoich information, this one must be a 107mm mountain mortar.....
But all wartime images that I have seen of heavy soviet mortars show the trailer associated to the 107mm mortar, !! :? :x

No wartime images of the 120mm PM-38 mortar trailer !! :? :x ....It is very rare

Sturm78
Hi All,
I do not think that it can be assumed that all mortars carried on the Trailer Type for the 107mm KHM-38 mortar are actually 107mm mortars. This type of mortar trailer, as Sturm78 points out, is far too common for this to be so, especially considering the relatively small number of 107mm KHM-38 mortars manufactured. However, there must be an explanation for the large number of these trailers shown in WW2 photos. I do not know the reason and Russian manuals do not provide any information as they show the standard type 120mm PM-38 Trailer, the type 702 and the type 106 as the correct trailers for the 120mm mortars. The type 702 appears in wartime photos but I cannot find any photos showing the standard PM-38 trailer or the type 106 trailer in use. As Sturm78 notes it is very rare!

On another note, can anyone identify the following mortar shown on a photo from http://historyimages.blogspot.ie
Romanian-soldiers-Caucasus-1943.jpg
Romanian-soldiers-Caucasus-1943.jpg (89.71 KiB) Viewed 2058 times
Regards,
Draoich

nemps
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#90

Post by nemps » 19 Jan 2014, 01:53

Sturm78 wrote:Hi all,

Another image from EBay of an abandoned soviet mortar. According to Draoich information, this one must be a 107mm mountain mortar.....
But all wartime images that I have seen of heavy soviet mortars show the trailer associated to the 107mm mortar, !! :? :x

No wartime images of the 120mm PM-38 mortar trailer !! :? :x ....It is very rare

Sturm78
Hi, couple weeks ago Ifound from woods same frame from mortar carriage that is on upper picture. It is defenatly 120mm carriage and if you see the drawings of 107 mm carriage - it can be disassembled in two parts but my frame and carriage on upper picture is solid in one piece. By the way is there wariations for wheels for this carriage, my carriage is missing wheels and there is good to know what variants can be.

Regards nemps.

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