new serie 600 felmabig

[der bunkermann]

Ruud.
Could be they were built in neue westwall period, maybe you can find light Flak during that period?

Gr, Tim

[AW]

Thanks for the Troops, Ruud... what is the date and are the troops from 108a incl.?
it looks as if the LW created a mix of 674 and Küver construction?
greetz
Alex

[hakobordeaux]

Hi everybody,

Documents of Bordeaux area are dealing with "668/40", "646/40" and "677/40" and not "typ II" or "668 feldmassig"... So we should nuance the different callings for the same bunker regarding to the different areas of the Atlantikwall !

We are certainly talking about the same bunker but called differently ! Builders in Bordeaux area used the strenght of the walls to give a name of the new building they had to edificate ... Others gave a name like type 1 and type 2 (...) in order to make the difference at the moment, waiting another calling for the building !? I think that kleinunterstand 1, 2 or whatever or big bunker A, B, C or D are certainly some callings of circonstance !!
What is your opinion ?
Freundlischen Grüssen !

[dirk Peeters]

maybe it ist not so bad your thinking
can you place a document where we can see 668/40 ...

[hakobordeaux]

[jopaerya]

Sounds and looks very interesting , Erwann

[dirk Peeters]

Thanks looks good Erwann
This is the first army solution ....
Do you have a plan for the 646?
Dirk

[hakobordeaux]

Unfortunatly not ... No 646 for the moment !

Best regards

[dirk Peeters]

OK let s see what we got
first St Malo 7 KVA A Ra 675

here we see they written down 630 and is St (2m thick) but in reality it s only 40 cm
this is already very confusing

Here Brest 7 KVA B

we see in blue B-Stelle marked X but in reality a 627 with walls of 40 cm
we see in red Kleinstunterstand II for the 668 FM (walls 40 cm)
here they have a problem II stands for the Kleinstunterstand style 668 and X for a 627 (no name like Kleinstunterstand
So we can maybe say that the name Kleinstunterstand goes for the 668 standard and the 668 FM (we can say here in this case it s Kleinstunterstand II for thus type only because the 627 is only marked with X , (and that i don t believe we can believe in a Type X as in Type II
Then for becoming more complicated in 7 KVA B

there are some 677 (blue) built in FM no letter or roman II
642 (red)are also built in FM
627 (green) marked only as X

so in Brest no logic
Kleinstunterstand II , 677 FM and 642 FM and also a type X if we gonna use the II as a type
Erwann i ll think your idea is not that bad

[dirk Peeters]

we see for the 668 FM as we called it this is in the First armee 668/40
668 FM as we called it this is in the seventh armee (Kleinstunterstand) II
Thanks erwann for opening this very intresting topic here

[dirk Peeters]

PS Erwann Did you find also Kleinstunterstand I in a document for this 40 cm style ?
and another thing for Brest
in the bauliste we placed here they put only the 40 cm versions , not the VFtypes who are also built at these strongpoints
so here in these bauliste only ST versions (red and Festungmassig) and there smaller variants (FM) (Feldmassig and bleu)
no mention whatso ever for the VF types
so there is another proof of the connection with ST and the FM types here
We see the same in the first army on the Erwann Document

Dirk

[Chazette]

Hello gentlemen

first
on Bo 42 all of the 668 in the plan are NOT BUILT no existing is first
second
only the 668/02 + Ib Wasser in Bo 42 XVI is built (gliederung wasser AOK1)

In Bretagne you see in the Bama document Kleinsunterstand II (feldmässig) = is a Regelbau like 669, 114a or other
if German want to put 668 feldm he put on this liste 668 in feldm and not Kleinsunterstand II
like 677 feldm (you see on the same list) or 642 feldm

I find normal to use the German typology present on the documents because they are the ones who created it, not us
So for my part I am this typology
A good night
AC

[hakobordeaux]

To resume, these are the three kind of shelters built in the harbour area of Bordeaux ...





Walls are not exactly 0,40 meters thick ...

Best regards dear friends !

[dirk Peeters]

for sure the germans put the FM serie in these listings , they considfered them as built like the ST
that is why there are steel beams in the ceilings , above doors aso
al these are characteristic for these series
as the germans considered them as ST why they created on the list the Feldmassig ? clearly they see the difference
and as Erwann found out the germans called the 668 in his region 668/40 as seen on his document which is german i don t think all 668 FM are called Kleinstunterstand (II)
so im pretty sure the germans don t call a 668 in feldmassig a 668 FM officialy but neither the name 668/40 is officialy taken for granted
as Erwann asked these names are only used locally
and another thing it doesn t go only about the 668 FM or 668/40 or Kleinstunterstand
it goes for a whole series of them with many types found altogheter (668 , 677 , 625 , 627 , 642 , 630 all these are found on german documents and in the field
so i agree Kleinstunterstand II is a 668 build in feldmassig but only in the Brest region
and besides what about the type X mentioned also like an ST Type but it is always the 627 ausfuhrung in 40 cm ... We can t use Kleinstunterstand II officialy and not the type X ... These names are used on the same document (even the same page ....
be carefull to use this name Kleinstunterstand II as it is only local and only found by this time in one document
we have a series here but it needs some more studying

[dirk Peeters]

Kleintsunterstand II , we can't use this as the offivially name
because as someone will use this as the full name ... Kleinstunterstand II it s not logical
Why ? i explain
the type is clearly stated in the list , see 680 , 626 ,613 , you all agree thes is official so the X and II is also mentioned in the same list and column
we don t use nowhere the name for instance
St.f.7,5cm Pak 626
or
St.f.Le.H.T 664
no the germans use 626 or 664
if we agree with this
we can't called the Kleinstunterstand II but only type II if we agree the germans are not fools and set the type in that column on this document
we have used the names or numbers as 626 and 664 , 114a , 630 , 648 , aso seen on this document so if we use only the numbering why use than the name AND the numbering ?
logically here we can say II is a Kleinstunterstand (668FM) but don t say Kleinstunterstand II or we all gonna use this names in the future ( St.f.7,5cm Pak 626 for a normally 626) so II you can name is the type of a 668 FM
and X is the type for a 627FM
but not Kleinstunterstand II , that is not logical
and what abou the X ? i think we all can agree this is not usable
all this seems to me proofs that Erwann has right (local names)
here red is for the type X and bleu is for the type II
also look clearly in the listings above this document
a column of Festungmassig (ST) and a column of Feldmassig (FM) they don t mention the VF series here at all (and constructed heavily in this neighborhood as well in Brest)

Dirk