3 in. gun on German truck - Cherbourg 1944?

[Manuferey]

I have noticed this interesting model that represents a 3 in. British naval gun mounted on a German Henschel 33DI truck, supposedly at Cherbourg in 1944. I have never seen an actual picture of this gun nor any reference in battle reports at Cherbourg.

I have great doubts about the historical value but the model is very well done! Enjoy.





More pictures here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dl ... true&rt=nc

Emmanuel

[Paul_G_Baker]

I suppose that it's plausible - the 3in 20cwt A/A gun was mounted on lorries;



and some of them were taken to France (and left behind) in 1939/40. Also, some of the equipments (unlike the above example - from Wikimedia Commons) were fitted with a screw breech; so could be easily confused with a Naval gun.

[Manuferey]

Paul,

Sorry, I mispoke: I don't dispute at all that it is feasible to fit a 3 in. gun on a truck (or lorry for you ). The Italians mounted for instance a 90 mm AA gun on a truck.

I'm interested to check if
1) this particular combination (3 in. British gun on a German truck) was actually built by the Germans
and 2) it was actually involved in the fighting around Cherbourg in 1944.

Emmanuel

[jopaerya]

Very interesting , but I could not find any evidence about this typical truck with gun .
The truck should not be the problem but the 3.inch gun is a different story

Regards Jos

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi All

The "3inch gun" looks like a 12 pdr in a coastal artillery mounting. It could be a naval 12pdr with a shield. Still very odd that a gun that could have only been recovered from a sunk British warship would be mounted on a German truck.

Clive

[Kilgore Trout]

Would it be possible that a 12-pounder gun could have been captured or removed from an arsenal when the islands of Jersey and Guernsey were captured in summer 1940?

[Paul_G_Baker]

Emmanuel & Jos

Like both of you, I have never heard of this particular combination; however, the Germans did turn captured equipment to their own purposes - particularly if they had enough examples and/or ammunition.

Several Anti Aircraft Regiments were assigned to the BEF - and Hogg states that the 3in 20cwt was prefered by the field army (over the 3.7in) because it was lighter.

IIRC, Cherbourg was the landing point (and evacuation point) for "Norman Force" (intended to be the lead elements of 'the reconstituted BEF' and/or keep a defended 'redoubt' on the French mainland).

Cherbourg (again IIRC) was also one of the Logistics Bases for the 'original' BEF.

My point was that it is not impossible for the Germans to have found an undamaged example and mounted it on one of their own trucks ('lorry' was contemporary British Army usage for any vehicle of three ton, or more, capacity! ) as an extemporised SP gun - particularly if they were short of mobile artillery.

If that had happened (and it may have been a local conversion) then we are unlikely to be able to confirm it unless a photograph surfaces somewhere.

[Paul_G_Baker]

Clive & Kilgore

It is possible that the model could be of a 12pdr (it's also 3in calibre), but the gun on the model does look a little big compared to photos that I've seen; including this one (posted by Gooner1 on my "3in 20cwt - A trick missed?" thread:



but, as you rightly say, Clive, where would the Germans have got one from? And enough ammunition for it to make an SP mount a possibility? I do know that 12pdrs were fitted to some MGBs during the war.

Kilgore,

A harbour-defence weapon from the Channel Islands is also possible - but the Channel Islands were all demilitarised before the Germans took over, at least according to reports.

[Manuferey]

My point was that it is not impossible for the Germans to have found an undamaged example and mounted it on one of their own trucks ('lorry' was contemporary British Army usage for any vehicle of three ton, or more, capacity! ) as an extemporised SP gun - particularly if they were short of mobile artillery.

According to General Marshall-Cornwall, commander of the « Norman Force », all guns had been removed during the evacuation of Cherbourg in June 40, except for a 3.7 in. gun, that broke and was rendered unusable, as well as a Bofors gun and two AT guns that had to be abandoned. In addition, German pictures show a couple of abandoned 2 pdr Pom-Pom AA guns at different locations.

The Germans still had a lot of artillery available around Cherbourg at the end of June 1944. I think it would have been more typical of the Germans to install a captured ("beute") British medium caliber gun in a well-prepared, protected and camouflaged fixed position instead of mounting it on a vehicle.

In case of a captured naval gun, it would have most probably found its way in the hands of the Kriegsmarine. In which case again, I think the Germans would have used it in a static position for coastal defense and would have tried to install it in a bunker. But the only ex-British guns near Cherbourg installed in casemates were the captured 3.7 in. Vickers AA guns of MKB Blankenese. No other British gun has been identified in a casemate or a field position near Cherbourg in June 44.

Separately, the gun on the model looks to me like a QF-4 inch Mk III gun (101.6 mm). Its size would match the ratio of the model compared to the size of a Henschel 33DI. Wouldn't a 3 in. or a 12pdr gun look smaller on a Henschel 33DI?

Emmanuel

[Paul_G_Baker]

Trouble is, the Mk I to Mk III guns are recorded as having gone out of service in the 1920s!



The above is a Mk VII (which were fitted to merchant ships during WW2). To my mind, it doesn't look like the gun on the model. The higher Marks seem to have been of the sliding-block breech variety - and the model is quite plainly a screw-breech version!

[jopaerya]

Hello Guys

Now we are getting somewere, on a inventory list from the Kriegsmarine
there are 4 x 10.16 cm S.K.L/40 ( engl. beute ) on stock at K.M.W. Kiel in 1940.

(1) D. Altkirch
(2) D. Salmopol
(3) U.A.
(4) U.B.

Regards Jos

[nuyt]

There is plenty of info on British 4inch mobile guns, for instance here:
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/general/27 ... uns-2.html

They reached the troops in England in June 1940, maybe some were sent to France and left behind, fitted on German trucks in Kiel?

[nuyt]

In May 1940 these guns were already used on Iceland:
http://www.modern-day-commando.com/Iceland.html

[nuyt]

ok, last post for the moment. Germans captured 4 inch guns in Norway, both British built and Bofors. The gun could also be Italian 4 inch I reckon.

[Manuferey]

One theater of operations were both Great Britain and Germany "liked" to mount all types of guns on trucks to create mobile artillery was North Africa.

If such a gun on a truck had been captured at Cherbourg in June 1944, I'm sure that a lot of US soldiers would have taken a picture of it. I don't think taking pictures was as common in North Africa among British or German soldiers.

Separately, here are a few pictures and a drawing (with shield) of QF4 Mk I through III:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 6.017.jpeg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gun_D ... _Kilda.jpg
http://www.victorianforts.co.uk/art/4inchQF1.htm

Emmanuel