HV (X) flugmendung/-zendung Zentral La Panne

[myt1prod]

De Panne used to consist out of many German strongholds of which little information is known and/or a lot of contradicting information is spread. One of these strongholds, known as 'zone E' on the well known maps of De Panne, is known to be the flugmendung/-zendung Zentral La Panne. Appart from the uncertainty about it's name, present bunkertypes, ... I want to kick of with this one:
According to wartime information this stronghold consisted out of 1 X 617 (location unknown), 2 x 622 (location known) and 2 x 613 (location uncertain). However the photo above shows a bunker which doesn't match any of these types. Some maps indicate that this was the Wn. Zobel, but Wn. Zobel is assumed to consist out of 1 x 608 and 1 x 617. The Wn. La Panne seems to match the wartime information on this stronghold as the Wn. La Panne was assumed to consist out of 2 x 622 and 2 x 613. Again none of the above bunkertypes match the one in the photo.
One source - however - mentions a R637 being built in De Panne without pin-pointing it to a specific location. None of the information on the other strongholds in De Panne makes notice of such a bunker... Therefore, it is my believes this could be in fact a R637. (Wartime information clearly states a large observationbunker standing here.)

Does anyone have accurate information on this specific bunker?? Is it or is it not a R637?

Thx & grtz
jean

[JKernwerk]

Hi Jean,
I think a 637 has a different "noseform".
Morelikely one of the peilstande for one of the divisionalbatteries, maybe Adinkerke.
Greetings Jack.

[myt1prod]

Hi Jean,
I think a 637 has a different "noseform".
Morelikely one of the peilstande for one of the divisionalbatteries, maybe Adinkerke.
Greetings Jack.

Hi Jack,
that was also my guess... my opinion about this bunker being a 637 is based upon writings stating one was build in De Panne. I think the peilstande for Stp. Adinkerke was standing in the Stp. Von Schlieffen. Anyway ... any ideas on what type it could be? The distance the photo was taken from doesn't make it easy.
grtz jean

[jopaerya]

Hello Jean

According to the book "La Cote Belge" this bunker is not a 637 but a typical bunker that was build
several times along the Belgiam coast , for the 617 same book it was build in La Pane itself "agglomeration"

Also note the use of information of Group Marc ,
H.V. means Heeres Vermittlung ( Army )
"Flugmendungs Zentral La Panne" could mean Flugmelde-Zentrale La Panne ( Luftwaffe )
but I think Pierrot can help you much better about La Panne .

Regards Jos

[myt1prod]

Hi Jos

If I understand correctly the bunker on the picture is not a regelbauten? ... as you don't mention a type. Perhaps I have to wait for Pierrot to reply on this post.
On the other hand your reply is a possible answer to one of my other questions concerning this stronghold. Indeed the Group Marc states one bunker standing in the agglomeration, without specifying it's type. The bunker is marked as n°11 on the well known map (a,b,c,d,e,p,q,...) of De Panne if i'm not mistaken. The n°11 is within walking distance of the flugmendung Zentral. Therefore it is possible the n°11 being the 617 which you mentioned being placed outside the stronghold (gouvernment info states that 4 bunkers were demolished here, another fact which supports the 617 standing elsewere.)
The specific bunker n°11 (possible 617) was standing on a dune in de Koninklijke Baan (location of Hotel Donny), it was known to carry a radar on its roof (type not certain) as the locals called it "de slamande" (=letuce basket).
Perhaps you or someone else can confirm this location of the 617.

thx
grtz jean

[jopaerya]

Hello Jean

From the same book the plan with "Zone E" and also the 11 were the 617 should have been build ,
also the bunker that was build in "Zone E" maybe your bunker on your picture .

Regards Jos

Sorry for the bad scans but the books is paperback and difficult to scan and preserve the book .

[myt1prod]

Hi Jos

I have the plan but not that specific book (yet). In another book I found the same bunker as shown on your scan and it states that one of these was indeed built in De Panne. On the other hand it states it was built in the Stp. Von Rundstedt... but as the Stp. von Rundstedt and the flugmendung Zentral La Panne were seperated by only a few centimeters it can easely mistaken.
What does appear to be strange is that the bunker in my picture clearly has a rounded 'nose', but as it has a round 'nose' it doesn't have the typical pertruding 'chin' (look closely; it goes straight done from the 'nose').

no problem concerning your scans, glad they could help me on the way (I do have some more questions concerning this stronghold... but; 1 at a time eh

thx again, jean

[pierrot]

Hi Jean,

Jos is right, the observation bunker is the one shown on the sketch: this observation bunker belonged to the HKB La Panne when this battery was still located in Duinhoek. In 1943, a new position was built on the beach and together with the stellung Pony, it formed the Stp von Rundstedt. However, the Wasserman Schwer of the Stellung Pony (mounted on a L480) , was located a few kilometers more to the west within the Stp Schlieffen.
I have identified for the moment 4 different radar emplacements inside the Stp von Rundstedt, the 2 Wurzburg's are quite obvious to identify but the 2 other ones are not sure yet (Freya's, but wich one???)
Look at the air picture hereunder. I have indicated the location of some bunkers of the position, but there are more of them of course. The Stp von Rundsted continue more toe the east, there you have 2 other R621, a wasserbunker just west of the L479, another radar emplacement and some other small bunkers (Vf or SK maschine). Then more to the west starts the HKB La Panne with 6 emplacements, some 621's, the leitstand and the ammunition bunkers (sorry, not yet identified which type).
I don't think there were 2x R613 in De Panne.
Please note that the R617 was not a regular R617 but a variant.
Between the Stp von Rundstedt and the Stp Schlieffen, there was a small position named Wn von Manstein (before november 1942 = Ulrich). There were only a few bunkers there, but for the moment I have been able to identify only one L411a there.
I hope I could help a little bit.

Gr.

Pierrot

250 28 02 53.jpg

[jopaerya]

Hello Pierrot

The same variant 617 was build in Rochefort only this one was added with extra rooms on the side .

Regards Jos

[myt1prod]

Hi Pierrot

Great aerial! Thanks a lot!
Do you have a date on this picture? Because again it raises a lot of questions.
I've already made a GE map of the area before I registered on this forum based on the information of the Group Marc. Overlaying your aerial shows my map was quite accurate concerning the positions of these bunkers. But apparently the Group Marc as well as the book "Atlantikwall in Zeeland en Vlaanderen / sakkers&houterman)" was wrong about the types of bunkers being present. The two 622 being mentioned in this stronghold seemed to make sense, but I also doubted - which would be my next question - the presence of two 613. The 613 isn't fit to carry a canon and it was shure two 'casemate pour canon 4,7cm/7,7cm' were standing here, the two 613's in addition to these two 'casemates' and the assumed two 622's would add up to 6 large bunkers standing here which contradicts gouvernment information on the demolishion of these bunkers. (Although your aerial shows more than 4 bunkers standing here, I'll have to inform with the local gouvernment about this)
Also clearly seen on your map is the watersuply "le chateau d'eau" as mentioned by the Group Marc. This was already present during WW1. I have a picture of the whole area post WW1, I'll be glad to share it with you.
Another mystery of mine solved. Before you sent me this aerial I already found a cutout of the 617 and the chappel-like building. I doubted that this cutout-aerial could have been De Panne because of the 'chappel' of which no records where to be found, even the local gouvernment confirms that no chappel was ever built on that location. That means that the chappel-like building on your aerial is in fact the German garage camouflaged as a chappel. The Germans done a good job at it even to fool a local . Glad to see that one solved.

Which might interest you; the bunker I asked about on my post 'which bunker is this', which appeared to be a 502, should be located just right of the ruins on your aerial. According to locals it still exists and is underneath the foundation of the appartementbuilding 'Montreal'. If I do an overlay in GE it must be about here: (nothing to see though??)


One of my questions about your aerial: on my original picture in this post the villa "Les Oyats" (with the tower) can clearly be seen, this is a post war picture. Strangly it is no longer present on you picture, that's why I ask about the date.
(The Group Marc states that 2 villa's and the hotel "De Kursaal" were still standing here during German occupation. One of those villa's is known to be the villa "Les Oyats", the other one was presumed to be the villa "Bel Air" which was demolished by the Germans during the occupation according to locals, the hotel "De Kursaal" was wrongly indicated by the Group Marc and lay one housing block to the right.)

Another photo I found on the net which claims to be taken in De Panne:

This is in my opinion the Leitstand as seen in your aerial. The houses in the background indicate that it must have been in the near aproximity of the aglomeration of De Panne. Although no such houses can be seen on your aerial. The WW1 picture I have show two possibilities to what the houses in the background could have been. It was eihter the villa "Bel Air" which had to be still present at the beginning of the occupation or it were the small fisherman cottages as seen on the WW1 picture. If the picture above is in fact taken in De Panne it should have been taken in the early years of the German occupation. (Notice; according to the perspective in which this picture was taken the villa "Les Oyats" - which was sure to be there at the time - is just on the right out of frame.)

What fun it is to dig into history

grtz & many thanks
jean

[myt1prod]

paragraph on the demolishion of the bunkers to make way for the statue of King Leopold I of belgium.

Het bericht van aanbesteding nr A3/1 002 werd opgesteld door het Ministerie van Openbare Werken & van Wederopbouw Bestuur der Waterwegen, Dienst der kust. Op 22.08.1957 werd door directeur J. Verschave, hoofdingenieur-directeur van Bruggen en Wegen de toelating verleend tot het aanleggen van toegangstrappen tot het monument, afbreken van bunkers en andere militaire bouwwerken in gewapend beton op het strand en in de duinen ten noorden van de gewezen koninklijke villa's, west van de Koninklijke Baan.
De bunkers nr. 164 met schietstand, nrs 165 en 166, de verbindingsloopgrachten met een omvang van 550 m3 werden volledig afgebroken. Bunker 167, omvang 550 m3, werd eveneens afgevoerd.
De omschrijving van de werken en de leveringen werd opgemaakt door ir Marcel Gunst op 25.07.1957.

[pierrot]

Hello Jean,

Hereunder the original drawing from 1957 used for the inventory prior to the demolition. We can see clearly that your bunker (Nr 161 on the drawing) is probably a VF7a and not a R502. I join also a picture of this bunker (photo = archive Dirk Peeters) before it disappeared under a new construction (this is also confirm by some local historian like Guido Mahieu).

My air picture is from the IGN and from 1954. You can also find the one of 1948 there. On the website of Keele you will find more airpictures of La Panne from 1944. If you subscribe (only 15£ a year) you can have them online in high resolution.

Gr.

Pierrot

Afbraak 1957.JPG

Stp von Rundstedt.jpg

[myt1prod]

Hi Pierrot

thanks for the info... you seem to know more then the local government overhere.
Btw Guido Mahieu made an overlay once of the German concrete roads in the Stp. Von Rundstedt which I transfered some time ago to GE. Have to say he's done a great job. Overlaying your aerial shows that the roads lead to the radar post (left of the royal villa) and next they proceed - runing in front of the villa's - to the flugmendung. Nice to see how it all comes together. Even the atlantikwall itself lines up with the actual situation; possible that some parts are still there. (a small part is of the orignal wall can be seen at 'vissersdorp')
thx :
jean

[myt1prod]

unknown bunker1.jpg

Hi
This photo which I've already posted in another topic and turned out to be a R502, must be in my opinion the R502 as seen on Pierrot's aerial (not my adaption of it). The source claiming an appartementbuilding was built on top of it must have been mistaken about it's position and (possible) demolishment.
Should be the n°183 on the above map prior to demolishion in Pierrot's post. Any confirmation on that Pierrot, if the n°183 was also demolished?? Otherwise I'd go and have a dig in someone's backyard
grtz,jean

[der bunkermann]

Whow, that roof lookes more than 2 meter? Or is that guy just tiny:-)