38 cm SKC/34

[Janef]

I just want to share some thoughts about the German 38 cm SKC/34. Starting a new tread is intensional

After the loss of Bismarck in 1941 the Navy registered stock amounted to 19 guns. These were 8 on Tirpitz, 3 at Vara, 4 at Hanstholm and finally 4 at Todt. The test gun (serial no 50) was at Meppen and is not counted in the Navy rooster. In late 1943 the number in the Navy inventory rose to 26 guns, 6 for the rearmament of Gneisenau and probably the 4th (and so far missing) gun at Vara. This number was first reduced by 4 guns with the loss of Todt, and then late 1944 less the 8 lost guns on Tirpitz. Late 1944 the remaining guns totalled 14, of which still 3 were at Vara, 4 at Hanstholm and 4 were stored at Guldager railway station for Battery Vogelnest. The remaing 3 guns is not accounted for, but two were probably the last turret produced for Gneisenau and in august 1944 planned at Wangerooge to close the access to the German Bight together with the Battery Vogelnest. The last gun must have been ment for Vara, due to the fact that the BSG was already beeing placed in the newly erected casemate, only the gun with its cradle missing.

The railway version of the gun for the Army comes in addition to the Navy guns. Most sources claim that only 4 out of the original order of 7 guns were built. Some sources claim the seial numbers of these 4 guns to have been No, 80, 81, 82 and 83.
There are reasons to doubt these serial numbers. I will list some of them:
-According to normal German way of doing things in big gun turrets is that even numbered gun mechanism opens to the right, odd numbered guns open to the left.
-From what I have seen in the litterature (and find natural in a railway gun from a technical and educational point of view) the 38 cm railway guns all had the breech opening to the right.
-The 38 cm railway gun captured at Ahlen, Germany had serial number No 86. (Ref Ordnance TECHINTREP no 248 dated 28. April 1945)
-Remains of the guns stored at Guldager station, (apart from the part stolen last year) har markings suggesting serial numbers 81 and 83.

The gun at Hanstholm beats up the even/odd rule by beeing a right hand gun with an odd number (No. 89)

My best guesstimate is that the Railway guns were 80, 82, 84? and 86.
As for the Gneisenau guns I think the odd/even rule was abandoned - ref the gun at Hanstholm.

Any comments and additional info is welcome.

JEF

[ALVF]

Hello,

I am sorry but the numbers of the two railway guns "Scharnhorst" and "Gneisenau" are well known in french archivs because the damaged "Scharnhorst" tube was used to rebuilding one of an ex-Todt gun. The inner tube of "Scharnhorst" gun was removed, refurbished and was used in the Nr 73 gun (ex-Todt).
I have under the eyes a copy of french archivs of Ruelle naval gun factory ("Fonderie de Ruelle"):
-the "Scharnhorst" gun is the 38 cm SKC/34 Nr 81, Reichsbahn number of the truck 918594.
-the "Gneisenau" gun is the 38 cm SKC/34 Nr 80, Reichsbahn number of the truck 918593.
The 38 cm SKC/34 Nr 73 was totally refurbished at Ruelle in 1950 with inner tube of Nr 81 and the test firing was done this same year.
Yours sincerely,
Guy François.

[Janef]

Thank you very much.
Corrections are always welcome when they are based on facts.
The number "81" at Tirpitzstillingen (Vogelnest) was said to have been on the part stolen last year, and the marking "83", which I saw myself last week, might be referring to something else as another number on the same part read "3383".

I will check out the French repair report for the three Todt guns that came to Norway in 1949. (Nos 68, 69 and 72).
Interesting to learn that the French also repaired the last Todt gun (No 73). Any ideas what the intended use was?

Once again, thank you for the very interesting information.

JEF

[schwarzermai]

hello

1.12.1939 – Org.Abt. „Aufstellungsplan der Artillerie“ (des Heeres") - there are plans these "schwere Stellungsbatterien" listed - for creation early in 1940: 1st Battery to 3x 38cm S.K. C/34 (ortsfest) and 2nd Battery to 2x 38cm S.K. C/34 (ortsfest) (both named in original as 38,5cm)

is it the same gun?

Uwe

[Janef]

hello

1.12.1939 – Org.Abt. „Aufstellungsplan der Artillerie“ (des Heeres") - there are plans these "schwere Stellungsbatterien" listed - for creation early in 1940: 1st Battery to 3x 38cm S.K. C/34 (ortsfest) and 2nd Battery to 2x 38cm S.K. C/34 (ortsfest) (both named in original as 38,5cm)

is it the same gun?

Uwe

Yes, it is.
At the outbreak of hostilities in September 1939 the building of new ships was halted. Six guns for "O" were almost completed and another six was in line for production. In a meeting in the Naval staff late September 1939 it was decided to let the Army have 8 of these guns as they were adeqate for Army use (Westwall) as well as beeing used as railway artillery. The batteries you mention in the Army plans must refer to this offer. Later on, the situation changed dramatically, and there was no need for such guns in the Westwall. Hence the Navy opted for using the 12 guns as coast artillery (Todt, Hanstholm and Vara). The Krupp production line was continued and produced the railroad guns for the Army, later also the guns for Gneisenau rearmament.

A part of the story is also that these guns also played a role in the German-Russo negotiations on Naval materiel, and in some German papers after June 1941 are referred to as "Russengeschütze".

JEF

[schwarzermai]

thanks Jef!!

[Valtoro]

Interesting topic, hopefully one day the serial number for the missing barrel destined to Vara will turn up. One thing is certain, that the fourth barrel was not aboard "Porto Alegre" in 1945 since the ship was sunk southbound, not northbound.

[Janef]

Interesting topic, hopefully one day the serial number for the missing barrel destined to Vara will turn up. One thing is certain, that the fourth barrel was not aboard "Porto Alegre" in 1945 since the ship was sunk southbound, not northbound.

The serial number is not the problem, it was No. 78. The problem is the whereabouts of the barrel. The completion of the battery lost priority after the 3rd gun was in place. The BSG for the fourth gun (serial no 15) was brought to Norway, and the building of the huge casemate over the empty emplacement surely indicates that the completion of the battery was given high priority in late 1944.

The Porto Allegre was specially equipped for safe transport of such a load and was most probable the intended transporter for the barrel. What happened later is difficult to establish. Norwegian officers taking over the 38 cm Battery (ex Vara) in 1945 were told by German officers that the last barrel was lost during transport, but no hard evidence of this has surfaced so far.

JEF

[Valtoro]

Thanks for the number, that piece of fact had slipped by me. Anyway, the "Porto Allegre" was used in connection with the "Nordlicht-bewegung" (transportation of troops from Norway to Denmark) at the time of its sinking. AFAIK there are no traces of such barrel appearing in Denmark in early 1945, so it must have been planned to send it off from a port in northern Germany (?) The Schartenstand to "Geschütz 1" was built around spring/summer of 1944, but was the BSG completed simultaneously ?

The serial number is not the problem, it was No. 78. The problem is the whereabouts of the barrel. The completion of the battery lost priority after the 3rd gun was in place. The BSG for the fourth gun (serial no 15) was brought to Norway, and the building of the huge casemate over the empty emplacement surely indicates that the completion of the battery was given high priority in late 1944.

The Porto Allegre was specially equipped for safe transport of such a load and was most probable the intended transporter for the barrel. What happened later is difficult to establish. Norwegian officers taking over the 38 cm Battery (ex Vara) in 1945 were told by German officers that the last barrel was lost during transport, but no hard evidence of this has surfaced so far.

[jopaerya]

Here a list of the gun numbers of the early heavy battery's at Pas de Calais .

Regards Jos

[Janef]

Re post #10.
Interesting to read that the Germans in order to keep loss of Vo on the 30,5 cm guns lower than 10 m/sek just added more propellant.
This seems to be a rather hazardous way to cope with things, and I have never heard about it before as this might have some rather nasty side effects. Maybe the 30,5 cm was "undercharged" by design to conserve barrel life. For this type of gun a 10 % reduction in Vo equals a wear of the barrel resulting in a approx 400 mm longer ramming distance for the shell, giving a rather large extra volume behind the shell. In order to keep the max pressure at design level one has to be very careful in charge design.
When the wear of the Coronel guns at Borkum reached a 10% loss of Vo, it seems that the battery just were taken out of the OOB. Maybe the 28 cm SKL45 and SKL/50 had less leeway in this respect.

JEF

[jopaerya]

Found this in a report from 1938 , the 38 cm S.K.C/34e and 38 cm S.K.C/34f
who has any idea what the e and the f means or it's nothing special ???

Regards Jos

[schwarzermai]

hello Jos

i dont know what it means but it means something specal:

i found one more document from 1939 with this declaration

"Fertigung der nicht aufgeführten Kaliber schwerster Atilleire-Munition für Heer"

#1-5
17 cm S.K. L/40, 24 cm S.K. L/50, 21 cm K. Türken, 24 cm H. Türken, 30,5 cm S.K. L/50

6.) 38 cm S.K. C/34 - zu Lasten M 2 (Munition zur Zeit noch nicht entwickelt
7.) C/34 F - "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" ""

#8 and 9 is the 42 cm H. (t) and 20,3 cm S.K. C/34

Uwe

[jopaerya]

Found a other document with the 38 cm S.K.C/34e

Regards Jos

[Andrzej Ditrich]

There are 2 letter only: e and f.
They don't start from a,b,c.... so it's not kind counting/listing rather they shows differences like 2 models of the same gun.
We know well that guns were mountend on land (coastal batteries) or on rail carriage (railway guns) so mayby "f"= "fest eingebaut" and "e"= "Eisenbahn"???