''Schartenstand'' Delfzijl

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TiesG
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''Schartenstand'' Delfzijl

#1

Post by TiesG » 03 Feb 2015, 20:34

In 1944 three small VF bunkers were build at the ''Landfront'' of Delfzijl. They are made for small field guns I guess. The gun basement measures about 1,50mx1,10m. What kind of gun would fit in there? I hope someone can help me.

Thanks!
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lf1.jpg

jopaerya
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Re: ''Schartenstand'' Delfzijl

#2

Post by jopaerya » 03 Feb 2015, 22:03

Hi Ties

Must be for a static anti tank gun or light naval gun, a normal field gun or Pak does not fit ??

Regards Jos


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jbb20p7
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Re: ''Schartenstand'' Delfzijl

#3

Post by jbb20p7 » 04 Feb 2015, 12:57

Hello

Could it be a L14

Bye
JB

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dirk Peeters
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Re: ''Schartenstand'' Delfzijl

#4

Post by dirk Peeters » 04 Feb 2015, 13:23

What i have of the L 14 it s something else ....
Dirk

TiesG
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Re: ''Schartenstand'' Delfzijl

#5

Post by TiesG » 04 Feb 2015, 20:27

Would something like a 5cm. KWK fit in? Don't know if the Germans had those kind of guns in Delfzijl. Only non-flak guns I know are 18 pieces of 75mm.

Lars Bertelsen
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Re: ''Schartenstand'' Delfzijl

#6

Post by Lars Bertelsen » 04 Feb 2015, 22:36

Hello TiesG,
The cut-out in the floor is not deep enough for the normal Behelfssockellafette for the 5 cm KwK.
It could seem that a Sockellafette Ia (5 cm Bordkanone) would fit well in the bunker. But according to the German files, this type of Sockellafette was not issued at Delfzijl.
The bunker is much too small for a Sockellafette IIa (8,8 cm Pak 43/3).
The cut-out in the floor and the lack of bolts may indicate that the bunker was never finished. There must have been planned a concrete pedestal for a weapon mount in the cut-out.
greetings
lars

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ErwinZ
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Re: ''Schartenstand'' Delfzijl

#7

Post by ErwinZ » 05 Feb 2015, 12:11

Apart from the heavy Flak in the area these types of guns are confirmed in Unterabschnitt Delfzijl;

3,7 cm Flak 43
7,5 cm Pak 40
7,62 cm (R)
9,4 cm Vickers

I always found these 'schartenstanden' in Delfzijl a bit strange, not only the design but also the placement.

Lars Bertelsen
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Re: ''Schartenstand'' Delfzijl

#8

Post by Lars Bertelsen » 06 Feb 2015, 00:19

Hello ErwinZ

Yes strange bunker indeed. I don’t think that any of the guns you mention would fit in it.
Do you know if the other two bunkers of this type have got the same cutout in the floor? The lacking concrete pedestal might indicate that the guns intended for the bunkers were never delivered.

''Landfront Delfzijl 1944'' sounds like AT gun bunkers. My knowledge about Delfzijl is very limited, but regarding the dimensions, it might not be unlikely that the bunkers were designed for the 5 cm Sockellafette Ia?
In October 1944, 270 Sockellafetten Ia were planned for the Western Front, but in December this was decreased to 200. They were all delivered, but none of them for the Bereich Fest.Pi.Kdtr. XVIII (from Arnhem to Delfzijl). (Source: NARA)

Is it known exactly when the three bunkers at Delfzijl were build?

greetings lars

TiesG
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Re: ''Schartenstand'' Delfzijl

#9

Post by TiesG » 06 Feb 2015, 17:33

Thank you all for the replies. The bunkers must have been built between september and november 1944. Unfortunatly only one of them was drawn by the BRV so I can't say if the other two were finished by the end of war. Two of this types were aiming towards a anti-tank ditch/natural tank barrier and the other one at a strategic road into Farmsum.

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R_Rijntjes
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Re: ''Schartenstand'' Delfzijl

#10

Post by R_Rijntjes » 07 Feb 2015, 11:54

It could also be a MG post ?

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ErwinZ
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Re: ''Schartenstand'' Delfzijl

#11

Post by ErwinZ » 07 Feb 2015, 13:59

The BRV was not very accurate in these parts of Holland. So the sockel could be there but just not measured. But then again, we just don't know. The defences around Delfzijl were build to fence of light attacks in the form of paradrops and / or flanking attacks from the sea. Also the middle sector, where these bunkers were, consisted of an area dominated by a canal and a river. Most likely the forward area is / would be flooded. The one shown on the photo is positioned even stranger. In the direct line of sight there was an elevated railway.

With that in mind, my best guess is that, the bunkers would house a light infantry canon or a heavy MG.

jopaerya
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Re: ''Schartenstand'' Delfzijl

#12

Post by jopaerya » 07 Feb 2015, 14:37

Here the places were the 3 bunkers were build Z 6 , Z 7 and Z 14 ( Nationaal Archief )

(1) a M.G. opening from 4.65 meter is very big in opinion .

(2) how do you want to roll this light infantry gun inside .

(3) I agree with Lars a 5 cm KwK sounds logical
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jopaerya
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Re: ''Schartenstand'' Delfzijl

#13

Post by jopaerya » 07 Feb 2015, 14:46

Beside this typical "Schartenstand" there is also a typical personnel bunker build there .

Regards Jos

TiesG
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Re: ''Schartenstand'' Delfzijl

#14

Post by TiesG » 08 Feb 2015, 00:13

Which typical bunker do you mean Jos?

jopaerya
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Re: ''Schartenstand'' Delfzijl

#15

Post by jopaerya » 08 Feb 2015, 10:39

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