Tobruk Granatwerfer 8 cm (probably Ic 125)

[dirk Peeters]

anyone has seen other pivots ?
Dirk

[Chazette]

Dirk, if I can afford on your plan, the pivot for the mortar Long is not 22 cm, it is much broader (see photo)
Furthermore Long is a special case because if you look at the pivot closely we see that it has been re concreted because 5cm Gr.W was planned was changed to set up a mortar 8.1 cm (photo available)
As I said earlier in the post, you present two different types of Tobruk, one Ic125 Mortar 8 cm (without central pivot) and a type? with central pivot (Tobruk smaller)
Dirk, si je peux me permettre sur ton plan , le pivot pour le mortier de Longues ne fait pas 22 cm , il est beaucoup plus large (voir photo)
De plus Longues est un cas particulier car si on regarde le pivot de très près on s'aperçoit que ce dernier a été re betonné car le 5 cm Gr.W qui était prévu a été changé pour mettre en place un mortier de 8,1 cm (la photo existe)
Comme je l'ai dit plus haut dans le poste, tu présentes deux types de Tobruk différents, l'un Ic125 pour mortier de 8 cm (sans pivot central) et un du type ? avec pivot central (Tobruk plus petit)

AC

[dirk Peeters]

I can only say these tobruks are alike , not a cm in difference
only the pivot is missing or not

i didn t say the pivot is 22 cm , Its a hectogonal soccle with sides of 22 cm
it is not clear on this plan of Longues i know but one side of this hectogonal post is 22 cm

[Chazette]

your 22 cm is that

dirk2.jpg (38.62 KiB) Viewed 563 times

and the picture more 22 cm

dirk.jpg (26.82 KiB) Viewed 563 times

[Chazette]

Furthermore Long is a special case because if you look at the pivot closely we see that it has been re concreted because 5cm Gr.W was planned was changed to set up a mortar 8.1 cm (photo available)
with picture for explained

dirk3.jpg (180.53 KiB) Viewed 562 times

[dirk Peeters]

OK As i said One side of the pivot is 22 cm

i will redrawn the plan if you like
Do you like to see the skizze we took in the field? there it said the base of the pivot is 49 cm , so let s say 50 cm
that s more like it
i ll scan that if you like
I ll know the soccle is more then 22 cm You can look at my pictures but this is not the meaning of this topic
if i draw this as an error or not it is no importance but i will change it

I ll try to find out why there are soccles in some and no soccles in others and why there are different soccles

so please stop for the 22 cm
everyone has read and i ve said i have made an error
so lets continue with the topic
here is the good measurement

[Chazette]

Dirk you said
I can only say these tobruks are alike , not a cm in difference
only the pivot is missing or not

i'am not agree with you
why ?
for me as I explained in my book, we are confronted with two models

first Typ ?
Type (Longues sur Mer) Y side with ammunition niche AOK 7
Ring = 150 cm + -
Ground diameter = 278 cm

with the 8 cm Gr.W
With the 5 cm Fest.Gr.W

Type symilaire but hold AOK 15 Holland
Ring = 146 cm + -
Ground diameter = 275 cm

therefore the same

Ic125
for only 8 cm Gr.W
Type Y Normandy with niche AOK 7 side ammunition
Ring = 205 cm + -
Ground diameter = 335 cm

Type symilaire but hold AOK 15 Holland
Ring = 206 cm + -
Ground diameter = 336 cm

therefore the same

For the Germans the ring is important
Ring 80 cm = VF8 or 58c, d
Ring 150 cm = Ic116

regards
AC

[Chazette]

Ic 125 with 8,1 cm Gr.W.

Wn73brandel039.jpg (70.25 KiB) Viewed 549 times

[Bunkerfreak]

any idea what "IC" stands for?

[Eax-E]

It's "1 C" with a roman figure, in relation with the classical 1a, 1b... departments of the WH.

[dirk Peeters]

That i ll know
I did some measurmens for your book back then for the Ic 125
I even went to France to open some with spades and took measurements
but i shall repeat my question otherwise
Why there are some ICs with pivot , some havent and i m talking about the Ic with a ring of 146 to 152 cm and the total interior of around 3 meters
we find these at 15 KVA B Monika and 15 KVA B Adolf , belgium has several and Holland also had a few with pivots and ring of 150(Ijmuiden)
some have a pivot (Adolf 1x) some dont (StP Adolf 1x with grenades (mortar 8 cm)) StP Monika has no pivot but there is an hectagonal opening in the floor (for installing a pivot or ?) so with the ring of 150 cm we have at least three versions and Alain in your book i don t find this , that is why i ask it here we don t have two models has you said alain but for the moment five different (ring , pivot , ammo room (Y shape) and not only local but from Netherland to France)
If we can work this out you can ad that to a future book of the Tobruks
maybe we have to take a look also at the rings of 2 meter (your Y shape models) but that is for later
let s stick to the ring of 150 cm
for me it doesn t seem they where altered afterwards but built with or without pivot
Dirk

[jopaerya]

Very good discussion

The basic forms in Holland and the 7 Army are the same , beside the extra ammunition room . Is that correct ??
You are right Alain that the photo of the 8 cm mortar at Lonques is original a tobruk build for a 5 cm (f) , not
very easy to load under fire .

Still I think these are early tobruks build before the Bauformen were released .

Regards Jos

[dirk Peeters]

Thanks Jos
one thing Jos
you know Netherland very wel
why are the BRV drawnings show another pivot as the one we measured ? can you look this up with the armorlists?
here a BRV drawning

ring 146 cm
here detail of th pivot by BRV

here my drawning of StP Adolf

ring 148 cm
my detail of the pivot

we see clearly that there are differences
Dirk

[dirk Peeters]

Jos said
The basic forms in Holland and the 7 Army are the same , beside the extra ammunition room . Is that correct ??
my answer
beside the ammo room which i can t find in holland for this type (for the moment ???)
the two types with ring exists (150 cm and 200 cm)
than with the ring of 150 cm some have this pivot others not
for the moment i didnt sort by ring of 200 cm and pivots or fixations in Holland so that i can t tell but that is for the future

[jopaerya]

Hi Dirk

I think there is still one at IJmuiden in W.n. 92 ( two Ic 116 and one mortar tobruk ) but I think Ruud Pols knows more ??
https://www.google.nl/search?q=Widderst ... 2+IJmuiden