Tobruk Granatwerfer 8 cm (probably Ic 125)

[dirk Peeters]

for the record
there are some of this type with a ring of 2m20
these are built in the 15 KVA A2
so three rings
150 cm
205 cm
220 cm
give or take a few cm
Dirk

[dirk Peeters]

can anyone ask Ruud Pols about it please ?

[Chazette]

Hello Jos and Dirk

many many question
1/why are the BRV drawnings show another pivot as the one we measured ? can you look this up with the armorlists?
here a BRV drawning (Dirk)
the BRV drawing give a socle with 2 typ of concret
hard concrete and walk around the pivot and most liquid concrete (to fill) is seen in the drawing (zebra pattern)
the form are different like you see on the 2 drawing but not change the model (the Holland pivot version is for my the first version)

2/ Dirk google traduction is bad to transfert in french what you said in first, i'am not understand

3/ Jos yes the The basic forms in Holland and the 7 Army are the same , beside the extra ammunition room .
But AOK 7 in 22 april 42 to1944
But in 1942 = AOK 15 (only before 21 avril 1942 and is important to know this !)
Ic 125 built before 21 april 1942 after NO Ic 125 in Normandie only BF69 and MD (AOK 7)
In the north of France, Holland = basic version Ic 125
in Normandie = only Y version of Ic 125 most recent dated the version basic
AC

[Chazette]

If you found a Stp Adolf Ic ? with ring 150 cm with 8 cm Gr.W
this means that the central pivot has been removed in order to position the mortar 8 cm and that if you find shells in a 8 cm Ic ? which has a central pivot, it means that it has been modified to receive the mortar (same as Longues sur Mer) as the mortar 5 cm was not available

Si vous avez trouvé dans un Adolf Stp Ic? avec anneau 150 cm avec 8 cm Gr.W
cela veut dire que le pivot central a été enlevé afin de pouvoir positionner le mortier de 8 cm et que si vous trouvez des obus de 8 cm dans un Ic ? qui possède un pivot central, cela veut dire que celui-ci a été modifié pour recevoir ce mortier (idem que Longues) car le mortier de 5 cm n'était pas disponible
A+
AC

[Chazette]

The Tobruk model is the model of Tobruk, but arming himself he can change depending on the availability of locally available materials
The type does not change
As in a 58c you can put many things

Le modele de Tobruk est le modele de Tobruk, mais l'armement lui il peut changer en fonction de la disponibilité de matériel disponible localement
Le type ne change pas
Comme dans un 58c on peut y mettre plein de choses
A+
AC

[dirk Peeters]

Alain
The pivot has not been removed, it has a smooth floor
if the germans removed the pivot that leaves traces but here
a very smooth floor
believe me we cleaned it thoroughly
as the other with the pivot
i m sorry but that is what we found
a smooth floor which hasn t been altered and the 8 cm mortar grenades

Dirk

[Chazette]

Ne Soit Pas désolé Tout est ok
planché lisse with mortier de 8 cm sans traces d'enlevement du pivot normalement Prévu
Cela Veut simplement dire que au moment de la construction, les Allemands avaient déjà-prevu d'y placer un mortier de 8 cm pour des Raisons Stratégiques au détriment Du mortier de 5 cm
Mais le changement d'armement n'affecte pas le Type de construction
Ic ? mortier de 8 cm Gr.W (Ring 150 Comme Longues Mais sans pivot)

Do not be sorry everything is ok
floored with smooth mortar 8 cm no traces of removal of the normally scheduled pivot
It simply means that during construction, the Germans had already planned to place a mortar 8 cm for strategic reasons and availability of equipment at the expense of 5 cm
But weapons does not change the type of construction
Ic ? Mortar 8 cm Gr.W (Ring 150 as Longues sur Mer without pivot)

je corrige car le traducteur met n'importe quoi désolé Dirk

[dirk Peeters]

i m not sorry or angry Alain no problem at all
there are three different construction models of this 150 cm found
With pivot , without pivot and one with a hole in the foor
it seems the germans know very good what they are doing
even in the same StP (adolf here)
i don t say this is another number not at all
but to me it seems that this Tobruk isn t at first only for the 5 cm but also for the 8 cm
don t forget in this StP we found Ic 116 with Bf 58c and two 5 cm KwK so for me it isnt a change in the last minute but well thought over (Two Ic 125 with pivot
one without pivot and its the one in the middle
That is my observation
and i doint think it is in the course of construction they altered it
because
What is poored first ? The floor ....
Dirk

[Chazette]

Personnellement, je pense qu'il ne faut pas se fixer uniquement sur le Stp Adolf pour faire une analyse, mais sur l'ensemble des constructions édifiées sur le Mur afin de pouvoir comparer et d'établir des statistiques
Dans le Stp. Adolf, comme à Longues, il y a eu des changements
pourquois ? comment ? à quelle date ? personne ne peut répondre, on était pas là et pas de doc spécifique
De nombreux ouvrages sont adaptés au terrain, recoivent des matériels différents, possèdent des entrées différentes et des modifications locales
Pour moi il y a toujours deux modèles Ic 125 (Normal et évolué en Y Ring 205 cm) et le modele Ic ? dont nous ne possédons pas le numéro (Ring 150 cm)

I personally think that we should not set solely on the Stp Adolf to make an analysis, but on all constructions built on the Wall in order to compare and compile statistics
In Stp. Adolf, as Longues, there has been changes
whys? how? when? nobody can answer, it was not there and no specific doc
Many books are tailored to the terrain, receive different materials, have different inputs and local changes
For me there is always two models Ic 125 (Normal and Y evolved Ring 205 cm) and Ic model ? which we do not have the number (Ring 150 cm)
AC

[Chazette]

i m sorry but that is what we found
a smooth floor which hasn t been altered and the 8 cm mortar grenades
Dirk

Postby dirk Peeters » 08 Jul 2015 10:00
i m not sorry or angry Alain no problem at all

Sorry

[dirk Peeters]

i m not only working on Adolf
we find the same thing in holland with an without pivot (soccle)
in StP Monika we found two also without soccle
The BRV has also these type without soccle
It seems clear Alain that we find the "type without soccle" everywhere , as the version with soccle
here some BRV drawning of a 150 cm without soccle

2015-07-08_113520.jpg (62.63 KiB) Viewed 542 times

so as you can see It s not the only one in StP Adolf
All these have smooth floor
so you can t say we study the whole atlantikwall on one stP
Dirk

[dirk Peeters]

What about this one with a ringof 2m20 ?
If you say 150 cm and 205 (which is actually rather 200)
then here you have another ring and a smooth floor

[jopaerya]

Here the list from equipment used in Stp. Adolf in 1943 , interesting to see the two French 8 cm mortars and one light one .

Regards Jos

[dirk Peeters]

Thanks Jos
Dirk

[dirk Peeters]

here another one with the number of the ammo