Use of Captured Russian Artillery by the Germans

[KG Erwin]

The Germans used captured Russian guns against their former owners, but my question is, would there be any reason for the Germans to transfer any of these captured guns to another front? Were any of these captured guns sent to France prior to D-Day? I would think that unless a significant amount of ammunition was also seized, it simply wouldn't make sense to ship a Russian 76 or 122 to the French coast. Any information available on this?

[varjag]

I am certain I have seen a picture of a Russian 76,2mm 'Ratsch-Boom',altered and
reborn as a German anti-tank gun, and captured in Tunisia. Why not - they had plenty of them and they were good guns. The Germans even manufactured their own ammo for them.

[Rommel8]

The germans used the 76.2mm as stated above widely in Africa, thats how they were able to put up with some of the heavy tanks...when the british over ran the AT positions, they were shocked to see them

[Paul Lakowski]

The germans captured something like 5000 x 76mm guns in 1941 alone along with 3 million rounds of ammo from warhouses near the front.I think another 3000 fell into there hads in 1942. Historically German ammo consumption runs at something like 200 rounds per ATgun per year and 2000 rounds per Howitzer per year .

So based on this, they had enough ammo to use the >8000 x 76s as ATguns for ~ 22 continous months based on that captured stockpile or as arty for ~10 weeks .


They also captured thousands of 122mm & 152mm howitzers during the war and set up alot on the atlantic war with 50 rounds of ammo each..or so I've read.

Starting in 1942 they manufactured ammo for all of these guns to the tune of ....

3.4 million 76mm round in 1942-1945 (for rechambered Pak 36/39r guns)
1.7 milliom 122mm rounds in 1943-44
0.7 million 152mm rounds in 1943-44

[sturmvogel]

I have OBs of the 3rd Panzer Army in early '42 that show a few batteries of captured Russian guns in use.
The Germans made extensive use of Russian weapons, not least as AT guns, but they also bored out Russian 76.2mm and 85mm AA guns to take German 88mm ammo. Over 600 were in service for homeland defense in late '44.

Jason

[Paul Lakowski]

I have OBs of the 3rd Panzer Army in early '42 that show a few batteries of captured Russian guns in use.
The Germans made extensive use of Russian weapons, not least as AT guns, but they also bored out Russian 76.2mm and 85mm AA guns to take German 88mm ammo. Over 600 were in service for homeland defense in late '44.

Jason

Yep that sounds about right .In the first 6 months of 1941 the germans over run most of Russia west of Moscow and in a matter of weeks 40% of the Russian storage dumps fall intact into German hands. In the first 3 months alone the divisions of Pz group 2 & 4 by them selves captured ~ 6400 guns howitzers and mortars. In the course of 1941 they will go on to capture 13,000 to 15, 000 arty pieces and a further 5900 in 1942. Just based on these captured 'instock' numbers [taken from Stumbling Coloususs ; Glantz pp 182/183] , this nets the Germans the following rough estimated war bootie in 1941.

~ 4000 x 76mm field guns with 2.5 to 3 million rounds of ammo [ > 3 years based on 200 rounds per year /AT gun]
~1000 x 122mm Field Guns with 2 million rounds of ammo[ ~1 year supply based on 2000 rounds per year /Arty How]
~1200x152mm Field Guns with ~1.7million rounds of ammo[~9 months supply based on 2000 rounds per year /Arty How]
~2000 x 82mm Mortors with ~ 4 million rounds of ammo [~8 months supply based on german 'fall 1941'arty consumption]
~ 500 x 120mm Mortors with ~ 2.3 million rounds of ammo[~18 months supply based on german 'fall 1941'arty consumption]
~ 600 x 76mm AAA with ~ 0.6 million rounds of ammo [~6 months supply based on german 'fall 1941'arty consumption]

The large supply of 120mm mortor rounds is what historically motivated the Germans to build the 120mm mortors starting in late 43

[Roger Griffiths]

Great stuff Paul, I have never understood why the Germans did'nt use 12cm mortars earlier. It was the Sunday punch against the 7,5cm leIG. it replaced. It was standardized equipment from 1Nov43, but that's very late anyway. It only appeared in any numbers in late summer 1944, after Normandy for instance.

Roger

[Paul Lakowski]

Great stuff Paul, I have never understood why the Germans did'nt use 12cm mortars earlier. It was the Sunday punch against the 7,5cm leIG. it replaced. It was standardized equipment from 1Nov43, but that's very late anyway. It only appeared in any numbers in late summer 1944, after Normandy for instance.

Roger

I always suppected the IG-150 was the reason they waited so long oot exploite the 120 mortar.

But it was such a heavy weapon [1700kg] that it should have either been mechanized or only towed by trucks... for basic wagon towed infantry rgts a 500-600kg 120mm mortar sounds ideal.

If I was running Wehermacht I know I'd have put a priority on developing such ammo into production ASAP so I could press this into service, at least at the battalion level as you suggest.

[Roger Griffiths]

15cm sIG, towed or SP, was regimental coy. weapon. 12cm mortar was either battalion heavy weapons company (PD) or regimental coy (VGD with leIG or sIG) weapon. It could be 'tractor' or horse drawn. Russians did latter too.

Roger

[Paul Lakowski]

15cm sIG, towed or SP, was regimental coy. weapon. 12cm mortar was either battalion heavy weapons company (PD) or regimental coy (VGD with leIG or sIG) weapon. It could be 'tractor' or horse drawn. Russians did latter too.

Roger

The russians used the 120mm mortar also as divisional support weapon....but it had at least the same range as IG-150 and was alot more portable....again if it was me , all the heavy guns would have been mechanized and the more portable stuff like mortars would be given to the infantry.

With out proper towing vehicles [which the infantry almost never had] these guns in such forward positions would easly be abandoned during retreat etc .

[Qvist]

The Germans used captured Russian guns against their former owners, but my question is, would there be any reason for the Germans to transfer any of these captured guns to another front? Were any of these captured guns sent to France prior to D-Day? I would think that unless a significant amount of ammunition was also seized, it simply wouldn't make sense to ship a Russian 76 or 122 to the French coast. Any information available on this?

Many of the static infantry divisions in the West had artillery regiments equipped partly or wholly with captured Soviet pieces. The main reason was that they had a low priority in equipment. As far as I know, they did not however to any noticeable extent have towed 76.2 mms in their Panzerjäger units. That weapon was used though by some field artillery units.

cheers

[Somua2]

Any idea what the approximate numbers would be for 45mm AT and ammo?

[JTG]

Mirus in Guernsey

[peeved]

The following table represents the distribution of Soviet guns in use by German artillery on other fronts as of March 1943. In each case the figure before slash is for land artillery; the figure after slash for coastal artillery. They are from Waffen und Geheimwaffen des deutschen Heeres 1933-1945 by Fritz Hahn. I have no similar data on use in AT, AA etc. units.
Markus


7,62 cm IKH 290(r) Balkans: 36/- , West: 82/91, Denmark: 12/-
7,62 cm FK 295/1(r) West: 12/48
7,62 cm PaK 36(r) West: 1/-
7,62 cm FK 39(r) West: 259/36, Denmark: -/40
7,62 cm GebK 307(r) West: -/16
10,7 cm K 352(r)
12,2 cm leFH 388(r) West: 3/-
12,2 cm K 390/2(r) Balkans: 2/12, Italy: 4/2, West:70/58, Denmark: -/37, Norway: -/4
12,2 cm K 396(r) West: 205/- , Denmark: 28/-
15,2 cm KH 433/1(r) Balkans: 28/40, Italy: 8/2, West: 64/42, Denmark:12/-
15,2 cm sFH 443(r)
20,3 cm Hbz 503/1(r)

[peeved]

The above mentioned book also contains some info on AT gun losses
7,62 cm Pak 36(r)
1942: 237, 1943: 217, 1944: 480, Jan.+Feb. 1945:64, an unspecified number of course was also lost with various Panzerjäger IIs, 38(t)s etc.
As for the 45 mm AT guns there must have been rather a lot in use since in 1943 alone 708 000 PaK 184(r) rounds were fired.

Ammunition was also manufactured for Soviet guns. An undated table in "Waffen-Revue" No.63 includes the use and losses in action in the West of captured guns whose ammunition was still manufactured.
7,62 cm IKH 290(r): Assigned: 449, Lost: 249
7,62 cm FK 39 & PaK 36: Assigned: 464, Lost: 134
12,2 cm K 390(r): Assigned: 130, Lost: 20
12,2 cm sFH 396(r): Assigned: 234, Lost: 14
15,2 cm KH 433(r): Assigned: 132, Lost: 32
Comparing these figures to the March 1943 ones in my previous post confirms that significant quantities of Soviet guns were moved to the West after March 43 also. Possibly also additional Soviet guns whose ammunition was not manufactured for Germans were moved to the Western front.