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Flak 88 sure was heavy

Discussions on the fortifications & artillery used by the Axis forces.
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Postby deadly88mm on 21 Jan 2005 05:53

88mm were well rounded weapons but for the flak department they were rather "small" they usually had a back up time fuse when fired in the air. But they had a high muzzle valocity that got them there reliably. Im not sure about artillery but a flak 88 can fire at a bomber over head one minute then lower its muzzle and distroy a tank the next so they were great guns for battlions to have. But if i was to pick for town defence i would use the 105mm more. But also the 88mm shells were "lite" comparded to the 105mm and could thus be fired faster. Oh yes the AA shells of the germans were generally timed to exploded at the higeth of the bombers and formations that is what the command centers handle mostly.

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Postby Sotka on 21 Jan 2005 06:02

Finns: Is this gun going to 'Panssarimuseo' (The armour museum)? I mean the 88 that topspeed pointed on video?

Regards,

Tuomo A.

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Postby Sotka on 21 Jan 2005 06:11

moses wrote:i have a little photographic evidence to share with this discussion

from the book "Shot to Hell" by Cory Graff

b17 which took an 88 hit to its nose but made it back home safely (barely)


Thats a miracle when looking damage that plane has taken. I think the pilot got fistfull of medals when got home. :)

Regards,

Tuomo A.

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Postby tommy303 on 27 Jan 2005 06:06

Reich Ruin,

Fire control was normally handled by a battery's Kommandogerät 36 or 40, often with an older Kommandogerät 35 as a back up. The 36 and 40 were a type of gun director and predictor and often incorporated a 4m rangefinder. The KG 35 and 36 both supplied fire control solutions and fuze setting times to the guns in the battery, by means of electrical leads which led to the fuze setting machines and the follow the pointer dials for the gunlayers and gun trainers. Fire was normally directed at a single aircraft in a formation, all four guns in the battery being directed onto that target. If the enemy were in tight formations, then slight errors in the fire solution could just as easily hit a neighboring flight member.


As to your questions about uses, there were several models of Flak 88s, the Flak 18, Flak36 and the FlaK 41. The former two used the same ammunition and differed in details of barrel construction and in Fuze setting machines, but used the same ammuntion. The FlaK41 was an entirely new design in all respects and used different ammuntion. There were additionally various other 8,8cm guns employed by the Kriegsmarine, but they were not related except in kalibre to the Luftwaffe 8,8s. As for the usage of the 8,8 FlaK, well as is well known they were often pressed into service in the anti-tank role and sometimes as artillery, but the latter was frowned upon because of the barrel wear involved. To a degree, the introduction of dedicated AT guns like the 8,8cm PaK43 and PaK44 helped to alleviate the problem of having to use the FlaK guns for other than their intended role, although it was still common to press the FlaK guns and crews into the AT role when needed. The tank and anti tank 8,8cm guns were frequently based on the FlaK models, but differed in respects to ammuntion types and priming, breech and recoil mechanisms, etc.

As to the ability of the Germans to produce these weapons, both the FlaK and AT guns, the production bottleneck was usually the gun carriage rather than the barrel and breech, which usually far exceeded production of carriages.

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Postby Reich Ruin on 28 Jan 2005 05:07

What kind of heavy artillery would have been used to "soften up" enemy positions (ie: Kursk ) ? AT guns like the Pak 43 and Pak 44 or more dedicated designs ? What was the most commonly used and effective German artillery piece ? What about allied equivelants to such guns ?

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Postby Reich Ruin on 29 Jan 2005 04:49

:| ???

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Postby tommy303 on 29 Jan 2005 22:28

That would depend on the tactical situation as well as the available resources. Normally, once the enemy positions had been identified, artillery barrages would be used to soften up the front lines. This could be 10,5cm howitzers or heavy mortars, or bombardment rockets. Heavier artillery at divisional level, such as the 10,5cm field guns, 15cm would be used against enemy rear area positions to disrupt the lines of communication. Assault by infantry would be supported at local level by heavy weapons platoons using light howitzers and mortars, as well as by armoured assault guns since certain positions might not become identified until the actual assault had begun, and immediate fire support for attacking units had to be readily available.

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Postby Reich Ruin on 30 Jan 2005 00:34

What type of howitzers ? I know about the Nebelwerfer and the mortars they used. However it's harder than one might think to find info on the howitzers they used. :?

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Postby tommy303 on 30 Jan 2005 04:37

You might want to check out these links. The first gives a good idea of employment and doctrine, while the other two list all the various types of guns and howitzers in use.

http://www.poeland.com/tanks/artillery/doctrine.html
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1269
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1268

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Postby Reich Ruin on 30 Jan 2005 05:00

Thanks ! 8) :D What was the most commonly used types ?

EDIT: Oh it seems the awsome sFH 18 was the standard artillery piece and then the their was the sFH 44. I also imagine the FLAK 88, Pak 40, Pak 43, Pak 44 were also commonly used field and anti-tank howitzers.

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Postby tommy303 on 31 Jan 2005 00:17

As to the most common types, in the infantry artillery category the most common was the 7,5cm le IG 18 and the 15cm s IG 33 which were used at company and battalion level to provide close fire support. In the field artillery category, generally at brigade or divisional level, things become slightly bewildering as no single standard gun was adopted; instead one would find a great deal of diversity between divisions and even between artillery companies. On the whole, however, the 7,5cm leFK 18 represented the light field artillery in most infantry divisions while the 10,5cm leFH 18 (howitzer) and its various upgrades were the primary medium divisional field piece. The companion piece to the latter was the s 10cm (actually 10.5cm) K18, a field gun whose higher muzzle velocity gave greater range than the same calibre leFH18. The final member of the field piece category was the 15cm s FH 18 and various upgraded improvements. This provided medium range heavy support fire and were organized along with the other medium field pieces at divisional level.

A very laudable attempt was made to standardize a gun which would have been suitable for both anti-tank and field gun serivce and the result was the 12,8cm K44. Development came much too late for service issue, although a small number reached the front on improvised carriages.

Heavy artillery, which fell under control of Corps level HQs, was represented by the 15cm K18 and 17cm K18 Mrs Laf long range guns, and the 21cm Mrs18. Attempts to replace these and a mix of captured heavy artillery with a standard 24cm gun resulted in the 24cm K L/46, but in the event production was very limited and only one battery of Arttillerie Regiment 84 was equipped with them.

The 8,8cm Flak 18, 36, and 41 represented the divisional and corps level AA outfits, while the larger 10,5cm and 12,8cm FlaK guns were mostly employed in static limited mobility units for area defence. These guns, 8,8cm and up were under Luftwaffe, not army control, and although they could and often were pressed into service as anti-tank weapons and occasionally as field guns, the Luftwaffe took a rather dim view of this as it took them away from their primary role, resulted in more rapid wearing out of barrels, and frequently exposed both guns and crews to enemy fire.

The various AT guns were fairly well represented by the 3,7cm PaK 36 (for all intent and purposes obsolete by 1940), the 5cm PaK 38, 7,5cm PaK 40, and 8,8cm PaK 43, and 12,8cm PaK44 (which eventually became part of the 12,8cm K44 program). There were also a wide number of enemy AT guns pressed into German service as stop gap measures and a variety of taper bore type AT weapons (at least until Hitler's order to conserve Wolfram for machine tools instead of employing it as penetrator cores required by these super high velocity weapons).

Of the various PaKs, only the 7,5cm, 8,8cm and 12,8cm could really be considered powerful enough in terms of the destructive power of their HE shells to be considered for field gun use, but they generally were unsuitable for this role as their high velocity and low trajectories made them distinctly direct fire weapons and they usually did not have field gun type sights for indirect fire. This is not to say they were not pressed into such service in emergencies, but their use as field guns was limited. As a rule, such guns are not as efficient in an artillery role as they are in their AT role. Among other things, their gun carriages are not designed to give the same amount of elevation as a deidicated field gun of similar bore size, thus their maximum range is often somewhat less. Besides, although HE shell was provided so the guns could defend themselves from enemy infantry or engage soft skinned vehicles, the majority of ammo produced for them was AP as befitting their role.

Perhaps, in closing, a word on the terms field gun and howitzer is called for. Generally speaking a field gun is a fairly long ranged weapon firing at moderate velocities and relatively low trajectories. Howitzers are lower velocity weapons which lob their projectiles at the enemy at high degrees of elevation. This makes howitzers ideal for firing at targets hidden behind hills or other terrain features. If you need long range you bring in the field guns, if however you need to engage an enemy screened by intervening terrain, then you give the howitzers a call, hence the mix of the two types in each of the in the light, medium and heavy field artillery categories. Today, there is less specialization in artillery and the tendency since 1945 has been to produce single designs to fulfill both low angle and high angle bombardment requirements

thomas.

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Postby Reich Ruin on 03 Feb 2005 16:01

Sorry for not posting.... thanks for th info ! I found a good WWII artillery website but Im still curious. In a scenario where the enemy is making a direct attack ( ie: "charge!!!" ) what kind of arillery would you use ? Mortars, infantry guns or field guns ? Infantry guns seem a good bet but they were relativley light and mortars had the same role ( though lesser range ).

Also I heard about German artillery firing on the beaches of Normandy, the Kursk salient during the infamous battle and elsewhere. These weren't railroad guns but high caliber. I can't believe they would be 88's so what else ? Im geussing the FH 18 and similiar weapons.....

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