Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

[jopaerya]

Thank you very much Jens , I will keep the numbers for the next visit to the BaMa .

Regards Jos

[Jens Andersen]

Hi Jos

The files are:

RM 7/2180
1/Skl. I West. IX/1. Artillerie.
Feb. 1943 – August 1944

RM 7/1249
General Referat III.a.15. Band
Ausrüstung mit Waffen, Gerät und Munition
Oktober 1943-Dezember 1944

When will you be going next time?

I am palnning to go there next month.

Jens

[jopaerya]

Hello Jens

I will try to visit the archive after the summer , but I am not 100% sure . Good hutting next month .

Regards Jos

[Andrzej Ditrich]

Little offtopic but: have you ever found info about torpedo batteries in Hela (Danziger Bucht) ca. 1943-44?

Brgds
@ndrew

[Jens Andersen]

Hi Andrejz

No, I haven't found anything about that.

On the other hand I haven't been looking for information in that area for that period.

However, if there had been any mentioning of "Spinne"-batteries in that area in OKM documents I would have made a note on it, as "Spinne" has my special interest.

best regards
Jens

[stril]

Hello

I know there was at least one at Herdla ("Herdla II") until the permanent batteri was finished?

There is picture showing a MFP with torpedos at Herdla. Its said that this was the floating batterie.
Havent seen anything but a intelligence report stating that there are two torpedobatteries at Herdla. The position mentioned suggest that it is MFP mentioned.
Wachtbot1 at Bergen seems to have been using the small island of Hestholmen in Raunefjord. Some pictures show it in hiding behind the island with a small observation hut on land.
A elderly gentleman at Sartor served at both the battery at Raune and Hjelte. He mentioned especially the unfinished battery at Raune.
regards
stril

[jopaerya]

Hello

Could this also be a Spinne torpedo ??

Photo = Ebay

Regards Jos

[Natter]

Could this also be a Spinne torpedo ??

I'm no expert on the G7es/T10 ("spinne") torpedo, but I give it a try anyway
From what I have learned these torpedos would not be launched from a traditional tube, and as such should not reqiure any guidanceblocks or similar, like the other variants would (like the G7a/T1 and G7e/T2-4).
I have edited your photo with two circles. The left indicates an object that could be the "Kesselabsperrventil" in closed position (that would indicate a torpedo with a pressurized aircontainer, like the G7a), but most likely it's a "hängewarze", as I think the tailpiece also has it's guidance pice mounted (the right circle - I don't know the german name of this part).
The "hängewarze" was only used on torpedos for surfacevessels (and torpedobatteries). For sub-surface tubes (ie uboats) the torpedo would have a "haltebolzenwiederlager", wich is mounted above the enginecompartment - ie further aft than the object I have circled.

In my opinon (based upon my limited knowledge though...) this is not a "spinne", but most likely a G7a or G7e (hard to tell the difference from this angle).

[Natter]

In my opinon (based upon my limited knowledge though...) this is not a "spinne", but most likely a G7a or G7e (hard to tell the difference from this angle).

I must have been tired when I was editing the picture in my previous post: This torpedo is by no doubt a G7a (the valve-covers and openings in the hull for the nozzles and filters of the speedegualtor are clearly visible, and - with the tail - obviously much better evidence than the parts i noticed first). Ie: Definitely not a "spinne" torpedo!

[Natter]

Pardon me, but I don't speak german...

3 Wagenbatterien Raum Helsingoer, Oersund
2 Molenbatterien ” ”
3 Schiffspinnen ”

Am I correct in assuming that:
"wagenbatterie" = torpedo on wagon, stored in garages at the beach - ref. MAB-01327.jpg in previous post by Jens Andersen?
"molenbatterien" = "harbourbattery" or similar (confirmed by Jens Andersen in his previous post).
"schiffspinnen" = boat with torpedoes slung at side - ref. MAB-01326.jpg in previous post by Jens Andersen?

Ob.d.M. orders 35 Spinne-Battr. each three torp. im Bereich Grp.West.

Jens Andersens post listed a total of 20 batteries. Any info on the remaining 15?

Erkundung Gr.West. je 15 Batt.Stellg. bis 15/5 bzw. 25/5 u. fuer 5 Battr.Stellg. bis 10/6.

Is this a message confirming preparations of 15 batteries by 15/5, and 5 batteries by 10/6 (I guess this is the 20 batteries listed by Jens Andersen in the post mentioned above)?

Für Scheldemündung u. Ber. Vlissingen-Breskens 4 Battr. vorges. Erkundung vorauss. 7.5. Anlief. Spinne nicht vor Anfang Juni.

Is this a message confirming 4 batteries in the Vlissingen area (delayed shipment of torpedoes)?

I know for sure there were Spinne torpedo's at Vlissingen and Lorient

These batteries appearantly are not included in Jens Andersens listings? (ie: 16 missing batteries from the order of 35..?).

Are there any Spinne-torpedo batteries build or planned in Norway ??

Posts in the norwegian forum have suggested two possible positions in Norway (Ålesund and Stavanger), but no solid evidence as far as I know...

[Natter]

I have just got hold of some allied translations of german torpedo-related documents. This include plans and reports on the T10 (NYK - "Spinne") and T3d ("Dackel") development (mainly technical aspects of testing/ production), as well as the establishment of "Spinne sperrbatterien". The latter seem to focus most on France.
I'll post some of the content when I find more time to read it all thoroughly (this first batch is about 80 pages in all), but here is a map to begin with:

[jopaerya]

Thanks Natter

For sharing this great map .

Regards Jos

[jopaerya]

Hello Natter

I have a list from the planned Spinne batterie's , but it's very hard to read .
The list fits with your map , please not also the M ( Mole ) and W ( Wagen ) .

Holland 4 site's were planned no town knowns .
Vlissingen = Mole (1)
Zeebrugge = Mole (2)
Oostende = Mole (2)
Nieuwpoort = Mole (2)
Duinkerken = Mole (1)
Duinkerken = Mole (1)
Gravelines = Mole (2)
Calais = Mole (2)
Boulogne = Mole (1)
Boulogne = Mole (1)
Le Havre = Mole (1)
Port en Bessin = Mole (2)
Douarnenez = Mole (1)
Audierne = Wagen (1)
Benodet = Wagen (2)
Pointe du Beg Meil = Wagen (2)
Larmor-Plage = Wagen (2)
Turballe = Wagen (2)
St Nazaire = Mole (1)
Royan = Mole (1)
Point de Grave = Mole (1)
Le Verdon ( Seebrucke ) Mole (1)
Le Lavandou = Wagen (1)
Salines d'Hyeres = Wagen (1)
Bandol ( Baie de Gorgouette ) = Wagen (1)
Anse de point Rouge = Wagen (1)
Balavas = Wagen (1)

Regards Jos

[Natter]

I have a list from the planned Spinne batterie's , but it's very hard to read .
The list fits with your map , please not also the M ( Mole ) and W ( Wagen )

Thank you. The map isn't that good, but I'll give it another go with a better scanner. Status for the build of some of the french batteries are mentioned in the papers/ reports - I'll post it as well later.

[Natter]

Content of a memo dated 1944-03-17, with reference "T Wa iic 1204/44" (red text = my comments):

1. Number of batteries
200 NYK (T10 "Spinne") torpedeoes are to be constructed. It is estimated that only half of these will be available for readiness, as the storage-conditions probably will effect the torpedoes and subsequently a need for more frequent exchange of torpedoes for maintenance at a depot.
Each controlstation is planned with 3 torpedoes, which in turn gives the number of possible firing points (batteries) to be established: 35.


2. The NYK torpedoes
Work on conversion and adaption of the torpedoes (from regular G7e's?) at DWK (I assume this is Deutsche Werke Kiel?), Friedrichsort seems to be assured. They can have the torpedoes ready 14 days after reception of the supplement parts from SAM (Siemens Apparate und Maschinenfabrik Gmbh), provided the parts will come in lots of 50. SAM deliveries are not confirmed, but assumed to be coming throug in a way to ensure the following delivery of torpedoes from DWK:
50 on 1.5.44
further 50 on 10.5.44
further 50 on 20.5.44
further 50 on 1.6.44


3. Carriage and firing plant
Number of torpedo carriages corresponds to the number of torpedoes in use (105). 120 carriages are to be produced (giving a 15% reserve). 60 should be ready from the factory at 1.5.44 or 10.5.44. Carriages are supplied by Maureb Swinemünde.
Firing apparatus on the carriage will be supplied by TWa (Torpedo Waffen Amt), and the priming and propellant compound by CPVA (Chemisch-Physikalische Versuchanstalt).


4. Local installation of the firing point
Assuming transport will take 14 days, local installation of 15 firing points must be completed by 15.5.44, a further 15 by 25.5 and another 5 by 5.6.
Installation consists of:
(a) The building of the splinter-proof stands.
(b) Construction of the cable installation with capstan windlass and change of the pulley in the water.
(c) Electrical plant for controlling and firing.


5. Means of transport and accessories
Means for transport are to be supplied by Torpedo Arsenal West. TWa estimates them to be:
2 transport carriages for excahnging the torpedoes every two months.
2 preparation carriages for visiting the torpedoes every six days.
1 caterpillar tractor with a crane for transporting the torpedoes from the transport carriage to the splinterproof stand.
1 transport carriage with a tractor for transporting the caterpillar tractor from one battery to another.

The fittings estimated:
1 power unit for topping-up the torpedo batteries
1 set of cables, measuring instruments, tools and torpedo servicing apparatus.
1 compressed air plant, in case the compressed air-bottles are re-charged on the spot.

For each torpedo firing-point:
3 compressed air bottles with pipes, manometer and filling branch pipes.
1 set of tools, apparatus for testing and servicing the torpedo.


6. Training
Quartermasters 2nd class or torpedo mechanics were foreseen for the steering and maintenance of the NYK-torpedoes. Their training must begin about 1.4 and be terminated by 15.5.44, and can be carried out suitably in 2 or 3 turns. The SAM group in TVA (Torpedoversuchanstalt), Gothenhafen is regarded as a possibility for training. 10 NYK torpedoes are ready for practice firing in Gothenhafen. With these 8 shots can be fired twice a week, 16 shots per week. The training of the controllers (35 men without reserves) must accordingly be done with about 100 shots, which allows each man to steer 2-3 times; besides by looking on at the steering he can acquire a certain sense of the steering process. A steering table, intended for daily use was erected as a device for practice.