a dog's breakfast: the weaponry of Second Rate German Divisi

[Charles78]

German equipment wasn't always superior.

The Belgian-made FN-Browning Hi-Power automatic pistol (a US design made under licence) was actually the best weapon of its kind in the war, better by far than the Luger or Walther P-38.

The Soviet PPSh-41 submachine gun was more reliable and durable than the MP-40 and was very popular with German soldiers.

The French Brandt mortars were excellent, and were in fact the chosen mortars of the US Army, which produced the French designs under license.

So don't dismiss every non-German weapon until you've checked out exactly which particular weapon it was and read up on it.

If you actually read my post carefully you will note I did not dismiss the non-German weapons. I simply pointed out that many of the second line divisions had a mix of different weaponry such as a mix of different caliber and make of rifles, pistols et al and that this made for an incredibly difficult logistics problem which the Germans were not able to mitigate. The other point I made is that in spite of being equipped with a plethora of weapons instead of standard arms throughout the division, they still put up ferocious resistance. I made no comparison or judgement of the foreign arms at all.

[Charles78]

Below in the second paragraph is the key portion of my post which you chose not to read. The reason I stopped posting on this forum is everyone delights in critizing any of the posters without reading closely what they said. No unit of infantry wants to go into battle with a mix of weapons in which ammunition is not standard, etc. That is the point. But not to worry. I got so sick of the constant insults on my posts which typically betray that the person insulting me never read what I said. So I stopped posting. There are many other forums which appreciate someone stating the facts of a situation and drawing a conclusion and then people can debate or comment on the conclusion in a spirit of intellectual inquiry.

The small amount of artillery the division had was of Czech origin and finding ammunition was difficult. The troops were equipped with 7800 German rifles, 1300 German pistols, 72 French Army mortars, 634 French rifles, 3 Russian pistols, 81 Russian rifles, 322 Czech rifles, 1,183 Polish pistols, 160 Belgian pistols, and a mixture of mounted and hand held German and Russian machine guns. All these weapons fired different calibers of ammunition.

The division had no motorized transport just horses and wagons and not many of those.

What is incredible, is the ferocious fight they put up against the Allied forces which came ashore on 6 June 1944.

[Trackhead M2]

Dear C-78,
The Germans produced the best weaponry in World War Two.
Debatable, they had great designs but using slave labor cuts deeply into the quality.

They just couldn't produce enough of it. A Tiger tank, for instance, took 300,000 man hours to build. No wonder they only built 500. Again,slave labor problems and also acting if they had all the time in the world to make what they wanted. As Robert Shaw's character said in "The Battle of the Bulge" the Germans were still the greatest toymakers.

Making the Elefant Tank Destroyer and the Tiger when they would have been better off making more and more Panthers shows a hobby horse mentality in organizing production.

To make up for their constant shortages of weaponry, the Germans used equipment captured from different armies they had beaten all over Europe. But this resulted in newly created divisions having the strangest conglomeration of weapons imaginable.
Not entirely so, Pancho Villa said that if there had only been one kind of rifle made firing one kind of cartridge he would have conquered Mexico in 6 months. Villas logistics problems rivalled the post 1943 Germans.
[/url]

Strike Swiftly,
TH-M2

[HFK]

Hello,
What does a dog's breakfast have to do with this topic of weapons and weapon manufacturing ?
Regards, Harry

[Trackhead M2]

Hello,
What does a dog's breakfast have to do with this topic of weapons and weapon manufacturing ?
Regards, Harry

Dear HFK,
You have entered the George Bernard Shaw Zone; the UK and USA, 2 peoples separated by a common language. The phrase implies a vary mixed variety of items. Think of the clean out the refridgerator cassarole which has 2 to 3 nights left overs in it instead of a unified recipe. "Dog's Breakfast" is a bowl of scraps.
Strike Swiftly,
TH-M2

[nebelwerferXXX]

The small amount of artillery the division had was of Czech origin and finding ammunition was difficult. The troops were equipped with 7,800 German rifles, 1,300 German pistols, 72 French Army mortars, 634 French rifles, 3 Russian pistols, 81 Russian rifles, 322 Czech rifles, 1,183 Polish pistols, 160 Belgian pistols, and a mixture of mounted and hand held German and Russian machine guns. All these weapons fired different calibers of ammunition. The division had no motorized transport just horses and wagons and not many of those. What is incredible, is the ferocious fight they put up against the Allied forces which came ashore on 6 June 1944.

352nd, 709th, 711th and 716th Divisions. Each for these infantry divisions ?

[tracman]

Hmmm.....

I was under the impression that the FN-Browning "Hi-Power" was really known as the Grande Puissance Modèle de 1935 and that the Hi-Power name is postwar. While the impetus of the design was by JMB, it was Dieudonné Saive who pretty much designed the model in response to a French military tender for a 9mm pistol that appeared after JMB's death. FN, which had a strong relationship with JMB for commercial reasons, was smart enough to use his name to sell the pistol, and I'm rather sure that most historians now accept that the BHP was Saive's as much, if not more, than JBMs.

FN did not license it out production of the BHP until well after WW2. It did produce it for pre-war customers, to include the Belgian army.

Allied soldiers generally did not carry BHPs unless they captured them from the Germans, who kept production of the BHP going until September 1944. The variations are well known. I'm rather sure that the Inglis copies, made from plans Saive smuggled out of Belgium along with examination of some commercial examples, didn't see production until February 1944 (initially for the Chinese) and didn't see issuance until 1945. I have spoken to several British paratroop veterans who recall that they were issued the Inglis Browning in time for Varsity, but not before....

The Belgian-made FN-Browning Hi-Power automatic pistol (a US design made under licence) was actually the best weapon of its kind in the war, better by far than the Luger or Walther P-38.

Hi,

Hi-Power was as common find inside holster of Wehrmacht officer/NCO as on Allied side.

Hundreds of thousands were made by FN to Wehrmacht orders, and parts manufacturing was subcontracted wide.

Hi-Power was J. M. Browning design, finished after great designers death by Dieudonne J. Saive from FN. But FN did not licence-produce it. They bought the design from JMB, like many others successfull Brownings designs that US manufacturers would not (initially) touch, and owned it fully after that.

FN then granted licenced production rights elsewhere...


Regards

[trapperP]

I read this post with no small interest and think we must agree that the Germans had the best of weapons AT THE START OF THE WAR - not at the end. The Allies had far out stripped them both in numbers and usually in performance. If I may stray just a bit, take the Bf109 - at the start of the War and up through the Battle of Britain it was superior to the fighters it opposed. The Spitfire was the best available to the Brits, and it was great little airplane - you just could not go anywhere or do anything with it. Same story with the U-boats - virtually invincible in 1940, almost a sure death trap in 1945 due to allied advances in ASW. In conclusion, with the bombing efforts of the Allies and the shortages of virtually every raw material I am constantly amazed that the Germans were able to do as much as they did during the course of the war.
I worked for awhile with a fellow that had been sent into German (by Rolls-Royce Aviation) just as the war ended to 'rescue' part and parcel of the Me262 jets - he related that he found literally dozens of these things brand new and parked because there was no fuel to fly them. I say this to show that no matter how good the equipment it is useless without the fuel, ammo, etc and the men to operate it.
And for what it is worth I own and shoot several Hi-Powers and the P-35 variant - and IMHO, the Hi-Power is the best side arm ever developed, even given that it is a 9mm.

[Trackhead M2]

And for what it is worth I own and shoot several Hi-Powers and the P-35 variant - and IMHO, the Hi-Power is the best side arm ever developed, even given that it is a 9mm.

Dear tP,
I would agree that the BHP is the best 9mm made, however I would argue it's older brother, the M-1911 is the best sidearm. Yes, a lot can be said for high capacity magazines, but the 0.45 ACP is a round to put an opponent down with the first shot. The contest between old John Browning's pistols will be going on after we are dead and gone.
Strike Swiftly,
TH-M2

[trapperP]

And for what it is worth I own and shoot several Hi-Powers and the P-35 variant - and IMHO, the Hi-Power is the best side arm ever developed, even given that it is a 9mm.

Dear tP,
I would agree that the BHP is the best 9mm made, however I would argue it's older brother, the M-1911 is the best sidearm. Yes, a lot can be said for high capacity magazines, but the 0.45 ACP is a round to put an opponent down with the first shot. The contest between old John Browning's pistols will be going on after we are dead and gone.
Strike Swiftly,
TH-M2

And my last line:
"even given that it is a 9mm" was the quantifier here. I am very well acquainted with the 1911 and it's variants, in fact, for two plus years I ran 200+ rds per week through a Colt, shooting competiton. And I know full well what the 45 ACP does to a target. Again, the HiPower is a 9mm and I acknowledge that full well - and I still love it for a variety of reasons.
Discussions such as this one all too often fail to recognize the genius of John Moses Browning and all the weapons he designed. After 100 year the old 1911 is going strong, the HiPower is still with us, the Ma Duece still works worderfully well - need I say more?

[Trackhead M2]

And for what it is worth I own and shoot several Hi-Powers and the P-35 variant - and IMHO, the Hi-Power is the best side arm ever developed, even given that it is a 9mm.

Dear tP,
I would agree that the BHP is the best 9mm made, however I would argue it's older brother, the M-1911 is the best sidearm. Yes, a lot can be said for high capacity magazines, but the 0.45 ACP is a round to put an opponent down with the first shot. The contest between old John Browning's pistols will be going on after we are dead and gone.
Strike Swiftly,
TH-M2

And my last line:
"even given that it is a 9mm" was the quantifier here. I am very well acquainted with the 1911 and it's variants, in fact, for two plus years I ran 200+ rds per week through a Colt, shooting competiton. And I know full well what the 45 ACP does to a target. Again, the HiPower is a 9mm and I acknowledge that full well - and I still love it for a variety of reasons.
Dear tP,
You forgot one thing, If Browing had been born in Germany instead of Utah, we'd probably be posting here in German.
Strike Swiftly,
TH-M2
Discussions such as this one all too often fail to recognize the genius of John Moses Browning and all the weapons he designed. After 100 year the old 1911 is going strong, the HiPower is still with us, the Ma Duece still works worderfully well - need I say more?

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi trapperP,

Why do you think "we must agree that the Germans had the best of weapons AT THE START OF THE WAR"?

This is patently not true across a majority of weapons groups.

I refer you to my post of 18 Jul 2011 12:08.

Which German weapons do you believe were the best in the world at the start of WWII and why?

Even the U-boats weren't particularly outstanding in 1939-40. They lacked the range of US or Japanese submarines and their torpedoes had faults (exposed in the Norwegian campaign) and were certainly inferior to the Japanese.

German superiority seems to have relied less on superior weapons than in their ability to use any weapons they did have to greater effect than most of their competitors.

A lot of this superiority is hidden out of sight. For example, the Germans had had considerable experience of mechanized operations over 1936-39 and had learnt more about logistics and maintenance than their contemporaries. As a result they could move air units forward relatively rapidly and their motorized formations had better serviceability rates than most opponents.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Trackhead M2]

Hi trapperP,

Why do you think "we must agree that the Germans had the best of weapons AT THE START OF THE WAR"?

This is patently not true across a majority of weapons groups.

I refer you to my post of 18 Jul 2011 12:08.

Which German weapons do you believe were the best in the world at the start of WWII and why?

Even the U-boats weren't particularly outstanding in 1939-40. They lacked the range of US or Japanese submarines and their torpedoes had faults (exposed in the Norwegian campaign) and were certainly inferior to the Japanese.

German superiority seems to have relied less on superior weapons than in their ability to use any weapons they did have to greater effect than most of their competitors.

A lot of this superiority is hidden out of sight. For example, the Germans had had considerable experience of mechanized operations over 1936-39 and had learnt more about logistics and maintenance than their contemporaries. As a result they could move air units forward relatively rapidly and their motorized formations had better serviceability rates than most opponents.

Cheers,

Sid.

Dear Sid,
I would suggest the US had the best infantry Rifle as Standard, the M-1 and the best pistol as Standard, the M-1911.

In terms of MGs, the Germans were working from a different theory and the mobility of the MG 34 and MG 42 arguably make them superior to the equivilent weapons carried by the Allies.

In terms of tanks at the outset of the war, the Germans had no tank to match the T-34 and the best tank in German service was the Skoda 38-t.

Aircraft are more problematic, the Spitfire and Hurricane were more manuverable than the ME-109 but the ME-109 was armed better and available in greater quantity. The Aichi Val was a better dive bomber than the Ju-87 Stuka in terms of payload, range, and while carrying similar armament the guns were better placed and the Val was a dogfighter that could defend itself. The He-111 and Ju 88 were underpowered, under armed and under armored. The Stirling and Lancaster Bombers had more range and higher payloads. The B-17 had range, armor. and armament and was superior to either German design.

I will defer to your knowledge on Submarines. The Kriegsmarine was always sort of the forgotten middle child of the German military, in that the Army was the oldest and got a lot of the goodies and the Luftwaffe was the baby who gets attention by doing lots of new things.

I agree the superiority was a combination of superior tactical doctrine and also it is easier when you are going to strike first rather than try to defend all the possible area that could be attacked.

Strike Swiftly,
TH-M2