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SMG A.T.

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.

Re: SMG A.T.

Postby audrew on 21 Aug 2012 12:40

Estonian-made Arsenal Tallinn 1923
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Re: SMG A.T.

Postby Juha Tompuri on 22 Aug 2012 19:44

audrew, thanks for the info you have posted here.

amateur wrote:Hi,

The SMG in the picture is Estonian-made A.T. (Arsenal Tallinn). The public knowledge is that there are only two of them left today. It is a little known fact that Estonia produced weapons before WW2. Among other stuff the Estonian weaponry factory Arsenal also made its own SMG. The original prototype was Swiss Bergmann. A.T. was developed already in 1927 and gradually improved. A.T. worked on 9X20mm or "Browning long" rounds.

As the Spanish civil war started, arms' business significantly activated in Europe. In 1937 Estonia decided to sell off a lot of its weaponry, including all of it's existing A.T. SMG-s and develop the new model of it. It was also decided to change the standard pistol and SMG rounds for 9X19mm. Estonian Ministery of Defence made at least two agreement with French arms' dealer A. Tschudnowski in April and May 1937 and sold him among other stuff 565 A.T. SMG-s. The official destination of the cargo was Bangkok, but actually the arms were delivered to Spain, most likely to Baski region.

My question is, does anyone know, did any of the Spanish units use those SMG-s also during WW2? Maybe some pictures?


According to a Italian web-site by an online translation:
Tallin m. 23, this submachine gun was made in Estonia at the arsenal of Tallinn city, hence the acronym A.T. M23. The weapon, designed by tal j. Teiman circa 1926-27, was largely inspired by the Bergmann Mp 18 and S.I.G 1920, even though he had some points of similarity with the submachine gun Madsen, whose Estonian forces were equipped. The operation was the traditional mass cycle that begins to shutter open, the perforated barrel cover longitudinal fissures had in stead of holes on Bergmann, the stock was more massive and with a little football. The weapon was powered by prismatic loaders from 32 shots posted on the left side, had worked with precision and the materials used in its construction were of excellent quality. The rifle was chambered for the Browning long cartridge 9x20 for compatibility reasons with the FN Browning 1903 pistol of the Ordinance. A total of 585 were weapons of this type that were divided between the army, police and national guard. In 1937 the Estonia had decided to adopt a SideArm and a calibrated gun for the 9 mm cartridge. Parabellum; the choice fell on the excellent FN HP 35 pistol and excellent Finnish Suomi submachine gun Kp 31. Estonians ceded twenty A.T. m. 23 the lats and the remaining 565 were sold to French arms dealer a. Tschudnowski in May 1937, along with other weapons. The cargo manifest of the cargo on which were shipped showed Bangkok as the destination port.of course the military equipment was unloaded in the Basque country.
http://miles.forumcommunity.net/?t=16079125&st=45

Regards, Juha

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Re: SMG A.T.

Postby audrew on 24 Aug 2012 17:00

Arsenal's submachine gun - back home
http://www.google.pl/imgres?imgurl=http ... m=1&itbs=1
Thanks to the reserve manager master Heino Piirsalule arrived in Estonia during the Republic of Arsenal's back to the previous two factory-made guns. A.T. no engineering solution, though quite the same weight category as the English of that period, significant technological achievements - Minox Camera, B. Schmidt telescope, K. Papello fire control unit - but certainly a great achievement.


Their weapons back into the home is very laudable, major delays and a hefty amount of money demanded business. One person did this happen, what country was not able to.
It must be said that the 1920th In the mid-anticipated English püstolkuulipildujatesse most of its stance a much larger, thus the greater potential for financial engineering and countries in ten years. During the ten years of rapid change in a very long period of time. New can be born only when decision-makers are able to look to the future. Estonian military high pagunikandjad fortunately were able to believe that the future of gun submachine gun. Although they did not have much confidence that the English champions are able to create such a weapon, the Arsenal factory was the 1926th However, in the spring to prepare your order, effective fire power promising a light ball squirt - if light machine guns are usually used to characterize the handgun on the floor ingested.

New weapon ready within months
But oh miracle - the same year Arsenal finally got ready to test five arms. The first official katselaskmisele 19th November 1926 on Arsenal three guns, which worked püstolipadruniga 9x20SR standard. Submachine gun designed (s) is not known, but probably it was the station manager of Arsenal technical engineer J. Teimann.
The tests were very thorough and disappeared happens without complications. The main test was to test for the armed resistance. The final selection of the gun, which had previously been at Arsenal 3000 shots fired another 500 rounds plus 2000 trial shots 50padruniliste episodes (by salvetäite), armed cooler after every 150 shots. After a total of 5500 shots were made to estimate the iron winch parts to wear out, and generally very good condition.
Pretty odds and ends, however, the Commission recommended change, and on 22 January 1927 brought the desired change weapons arsenal. Remarks are made in the Commission's decision to keep the new range variant, which was vindisammuks iron wear resistant and 400 mm caliber vintsoonte brushes at least 8.85 mm and 9.1 mm from the bottom.
The Commission's summary evaluation of the gun was good: "... an Arsenal pistol-machine gun, a prolonged operation at (released up to 7000 shots) quite work correctly, both single and automatic fire. Not encountered any weapon independent of the failure of gun or parts breakage. Coursing density in no way different weapons were tested up to 500 meters from the automaattulistamisel light machine gun. "

Estonia's own arms industry
Guns gave the green light for production, particularly the Defence, who is going for the 1926th in order as much as 900 pieces. Sõjaväeski convinced adherents of the new weapon, such as infantry inspector Otto Sternbeck held the 1932nd in the armed defense forces, and one of the most appropriate to meet the needs of up to 2000 pieces - one for each laskurjaole. Instantly a supply corps püstolkuulipildujatega would still exceptional in the 1939th year, prior to the Great War.
After successful tests commissioned by the Defence third June 1927 (the fiscal year began on April 1), an arsenal of 437 guns at 32,000 marks each and the same day the army ordered 100 guns. During the years 1927-1930 were both ordered the guns available, some of the guns and the police became 1928. Was a total of 630 of these weapons, pistols Recent years 1935-1936 were priced at 240 euros a piece (for comparison - daily wage laborer was only a few euros). A couple of smaller lots were sold in Latvia, one of the arms (No. 591), was received by the exchange relvanäidiste 1935th also in Japan.
Arsenal of guns was not a single specific name. The armed forces used the name of PK (submachine gun) and the DB police (Probably English submachine gun). Generic model, it would be logical for them to have the largest holders (70%), the name used by the Defence (symbol) AT (Arsenal Tallinn).

Similar but different
General construction similar to Arsenal's submachine gun was then prevalent in Germany Bergmanniga (also known as Theodor Bergmann plants by which they are produced, constructed the famous arms maker Hugo Schmeisser), yet it was not an act Bergmann's copy, as is alleged here and there. A.T. important hallmarks were used for ammunition and survival mechanism. 9x20SR bullet cartridges were using kinetic energy, and välisballistikalt Bergmann cartridge guns 9x19 or x21 7.65 (para) and close peatamisjõult latest tugevamadki, but with exceptional guns. The most important difference, however, is that unlike Bergmannist enabled AT line of fire in case of a single outlet. To the rear of the trigger guard two positions of the line of fire ümberseadja mode (easy axis of the rotating lever), which is not limited or restricted the movement of the trigger to the rear. Shutter limited (short) was moving back to shoot only a single outlet, the drive behind the stands, however, given the extreme line of fire. Was also A.T. all rescue mechanism (the trigger), uniquely designed and individually mounted steel box, which became the weapon assembly taken out easily. Kaitsevinnastamine weapon was the classical way, by turning the handle to the appropriate lock the lock's väljalõikesse.
Arsenal of weapons made a face at rauaümbrise more elongated and refrigerator Two rauaümbrisest for projecting rauakinnitusmuhv, which facilitated the exchange of iron. A.T. pistol in the outer surface to increase the cooling area had turned thick grooves. A.T. stood out among the other omaliigiliste laekaela shape with smooth characteristics.
A.T. Disassembly was easy for maintenance, only taandurvedru väljakeeramiseks tube inside and lock the pistol out of the tools. Partial disassembly (lock allocation) even these were not needed.
Overall, the A.T. Bergmann and of course total. Preparation was similar for both turning and milling use, and rauaümbrise iron fastening, gun placement on the left side of the tray, lock, and particle gun disassembly method. Switzerland, Bergmann advanced model of AD was also set on a rectangular tray slot, and a decent long karpsalv sektorsihik.

Had a gun - no gun
Unduly burdening the reader details, we can say that at the beginning of the thirties was AT Defence departments of our weapon, in the years 1933-1935 was also distributed to military units cover new weapons scattered. Was not considered in some kind of guns tilu Lilu-news thing, but to use a real firepower increase foot troops.
But in the mid-thirties were no weapons in the development of rapid change and Bergmann nor the AT responded to more levels with new weapons. A.T. fault was the pistol in front of the gate, which makes firing bullets hajusid more than new arms and the cartridges were from söötmisvead and ammunition itself began to remain weak. Thanks to the strong power of the charge, and borderless shell and automatic weapons, particularly well suited to the new 9x19 (Para) cartridges.
The Spanish Civil War triggered a major weapons in Europe, which was also attended English. Modernization of armaments sold to raise cash for the 1936-1938 war, the Ministry of International dealers in Spain on a large number of obsolete weapons (artillery, planes, hand grenades, machine guns, ammunition), including the entire chuck 9x20SR operating the weapons system - Browning pistols 1903 and AT guns Secondhand A.T. selling price was 16 shillings and 6 GBP or 296 euros, so a very good price. And so we are the ones without jäimegi ...

Has been delayed
Money received from the sale of arms to Estonia began to acquire the most modern weapons. In 1935-1936, there were thoroughly tested almost all known pistols, best recognized as the 1937th At the beginning of the Finnish Suomi, which used the 9x19 cartridge.
Also participated in the competition with Arsenal, but for some reason this time the matter was delayed until April 1937 and Arsenal announced that the two test pieces completed, one old and one 9x19 chuck 9x20SR Parabellumile. Compared to AD revised models were shorter and the longer 30-35padrunilised crates, fastened behind suudmeotsikuga vintrauad ülesrebimise reduce gun shooting. In other respects, they were similar A.T.-ga.
But the thing was too late, was selected out of Suomi. The early 20 July 1937 a contract was signed for the purchase price of the arms 360, or 3650 FIM 296 Estonian kroons piece - ie the same price as was the old AT-s sales. In addition, the Defence ordered 125 Suomit. As the English demanded more after the award, made a number of changes to arms (kirbukaitse, turning out the way ümberseadja download side, etc.), their delivery was delayed and Suomid started arriving until September 1938th
Defence officers still remained Arsenal's interest in the new project. After refinements and collaboration with brick arms department 4 August 1937 a test of arms manufacturing. January 1938, ready for a new submachine gun, and went on test pieces to pay 1500 euros. Ripening time may be called by the 1938th the model. Pisitäiustusi and after finishing the tests took place in June 1938 by the same program that was previously foreign weapons. Made over 745 shots were no errors and in some respects even Suomi gun were assessed Arsenal better.
It had guns at the rare brake lock-free or half-retardant tagasipaiskumist blocks. Vint iron key was easily replaceable and adjustable sight also accurate to the side cocking handle remained locked in place during firing. Lukupiduriga rate of fire was 700 and brake 900 shots per minute, the gun tube stabilizing suudmeotsik. Model 1938 was due to the long and accurate iron winch (350 mm) ball high starting speed (up to 415 m / s), and to succeed in the. However, despite the positive reviews did not follow orders - Suomid already ordered and were at the beginning of October 1938 and arrive removed from the guns of the plan to make an additional purchase of Arsenal.
Ordering a new arsenal of submachine gun came up again in spring 1940, as the National Defence Fund, there were 160 000 euros to buy guns and pistols, but the events of the summer changed everything. In mid-August 1940 was abandoned ordering new guns.

The author is grateful Toe Nõmme weapons expert, who promised to use your arsenal of guns promotional tracks.
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Re: SMG A.T.

Postby Juha Tompuri on 24 Aug 2012 18:23

About Arsenal smg in estonian, starting from page 129:
http://www.esm.ee/public/aastaraamat/2002.pdf

Containing also a photo of the quite cool looking Arsenal mod 1938 retarted blowback system gun (mentioned at audrew post above) on page 128

Regards, Juha

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Re: SMG A.T.

Postby amateur on 28 Aug 2012 14:23

Containing also a photo of the quite cool looking Arsenal mod 1938 retarted blowback system gun (mentioned at audrew post above) on page 128


Unfortunately the 1938 model remained only a prototype and was never industrially produced. The main reason behind that was the fact that Estonian Defence Forces had chosen Soumi as the new official smg in 1937 (after selling off the old models of AT-s to Spain) and had also ordered 360 Soumis from Finland for the army and 125 for the Defence League. So, financing the 38 model Arsenal Tallinn wasn't a priority anymore.

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Re: SMG A.T.

Postby audrew on 28 Aug 2012 14:50

I think I saw the star designer m1938 RU35 similarity is evident and commercial contacts with the fact that sales are at23

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Re: SMG A.T.

Postby audrew on 17 May 2013 19:23

After successful tests commissioned by the Defence third June 1927 (the fiscal year began on April 1), an arsenal of 437 guns at 32,000 marks each and the same day the army ordered 100 guns. During the years 1927-1930 were both ordered the guns available, some of the guns and the police became 1928. Was a total of 630 of these weapons, pistols Recent years 1935-1936 were priced at 240 euros a piece (for comparison - daily wage laborer was only a few euros). A couple of smaller lots were sold in Latvia, one of the arms (No. 591), was received by the exchange relvanäidiste 1935th also in Japan.
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