G33/40 rifle with Brandenburgers?

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.
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keith A
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G33/40 rifle with Brandenburgers?

#1

Post by keith A » 07 Oct 2016, 21:10

Can anyone confirm if the Brandenburg Regiments and the Prinz Eugen Division used the G33/40 or the standard KAR98K (possibly Prinz Eugen used the M24 rifle)?

regards

Keith

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Poot
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Re: G33/40 rifle with Brandenburgers?

#2

Post by Poot » 09 Oct 2016, 22:55

I've seen numerous photos of the 7th WSS Div. using K98k rifles, but have no idea regarding what the Brandenburg personnel used. The most readily identifiable units I've seen pictures of deploying G.33/40 carbines have been Gebirgsjager or Fallschirmjager.

I've never seen a picture of a 7th WSS Div. member with a Model 1924, although these were widely employed by other German forces throughout Europe. I believe these were used more for second and third line troops.

Pat
He who lives by the sword, should train with it frequently.


keith A
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Re: G33/40 rifle with Brandenburgers?

#3

Post by keith A » 10 Oct 2016, 18:34

Cheers Pat,

I wondered if the Prinz Eugen received Czech rifles because they had a lot of Czech kit, ZK26,ZB30 and ZB37 and complained about it :) I read in Kumms regimental history that soldiers tried to get MG34 or MG42 and complained that the Handschar Division were better equipped.

I know Prinz Eugen also had a lot of MP35, and grabbed Beretta MAB1938 from the Italians.

best regards

Keith

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Poot
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Re: G33/40 rifle with Brandenburgers?

#4

Post by Poot » 20 Oct 2016, 19:19

Hi Keith,
Remember that the G.33/40 was a GERMAN rifle, made in occupied CZ under German auspices and control. Distribution was solely to Wehrmacht units. It was never a 'Czech' rifle per se, although made there. You might be conflating those with the VZ-23's, -24's and -33's that were Czech made and absorbed into Wehrmacht service after annexation. I don't study the WSS, so I can't comment on any divisional matters.

It would make sense for the 7th WSS to use Italian weapons if they took over areas after September 1943 that previously were in the Italian AO in Yugoslavia. There are some pictures of SS Polizei (not the 4. SS-Div.) operating in Yugoslavia in 1943/44 in the Bundesarchiv Foto collection using Italian Model 1941 Carcano rifles, no doubt seized from Italian troops who surrendered/capitulated/were disarmed following the armistice with the Allies. The Beretta M1938 had an excellent reputation, and was a prized weapon.

Pat
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keith A
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Re: G33/40 rifle with Brandenburgers?

#5

Post by keith A » 23 Oct 2016, 16:51

Hi Post,

I didn't realise that Wehrmacht had sole call on the G33/40 and hadn't even heard of the Vz23 and Vz33! :) Polizei units were indeed heterogenous in their weapons. I have seen all forms of SMG in use but had not seen them using the Mannlicher, so thanks again. Berettas were popular with the British too. I remember reading that Anthony Quayle the actor writing that he carried one when working for SOE in the Balkans and I have seen 8th Army soldiers carrying them in the Desert.

best regards

Keith

Knouterer
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Re: G33/40 rifle with Brandenburgers?

#6

Post by Knouterer » 25 Oct 2016, 09:31

Slightly off topic, but the British actually tried to buy Beretta 38A submachine guns early in the war.

In an exchange of notes between the Ministry of Supply and the War Office in April 1940, a certain A.J. Manson asked:
“We have as you know ordered from America 750 Thompson Sub-Machine Guns, together with Magazines and 3 million rounds of ammunition. (…) Will you please let us know very early whether the War Office require any more of these guns? You will observe that in order to take advantage of probable saving in cost the British Supply Board ask to be informed immediately of any further requirements.”

To this, a certain Lt. Col. H. Peploe answered (16.4.1940):
“We have a project well to the fore requesting an urgent purchase of Beretta Guns – See 3A. These guns, if forthcoming, will supply our Z + 24 needs in Gangster guns. The bulk have been promised very quickly and we are most anxious to get hold of the weapons and ammunition as soon as possible. At the moment, therefore, we do not propose to order any more Thompson guns and ammunition, but wish the source kept open as far as this can be done in case of failure of the Beretta purchase.”

The Beretta 38A was by all accounts an excellent weapon and would have served the British army as well as the Thompson, but in view of all the tensions that had been building up between Great Britain and Mussolini’s Italy all through the 1930s, it is rather bizarre that anyone would believe that Beretta could be a reliable supplier.

The negotiations actually led to a contract with Beretta’s agent in Britain, the firm of John Gray and Partners Ltd., for 1,763 Beretta 38A guns with 37,000 40-round magazines and 2,250,000 rounds of ammunition. This contract was apparently signed in May and cancelled again on the 12th of July, for reasons which are not hard to imagine. That exchange also shows that if the War Office thought that fewer than three thousand SMGs would cover their needs for two years of war (Z+24), they clearly were not regarded as general issue items but as weapons to be used only on special occasions, such as trench raids for example.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

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Poot
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Re: G33/40 rifle with Brandenburgers?

#7

Post by Poot » 25 Oct 2016, 18:15

That's interesting information Knouterer, thanks for posting it. The Lt.Col.'s bias against the Thompson is pretty clear with the term 'Gangster guns.' He sounds like someone who would have felt fine keeping a combat proven, reliable and securely sourced weapon system from being acquired because of simple arrogance. In those days of Ball ammunition only (and not the current, excellent options available in 9mm), I'd much rather have something chambered in .45ACP.

Keith, the VZ-23 was the predecessor to the VZ-24. The former required some final fitting, like the early K98k rifles. These typically have more serial numbered parts and components than the VZ-24, which was largely produced when the Czechs had mastered the manufacturing processes necessary to produce parts that would perform as designed on ANY rifle they were mated to. The VZ-33 was the basis for the G.33/40 carbine. You could say without exaggeration that the annexation of Czechoslovakia allowed the Wehrmacht to meet it's supply needs in small arms and some field pieces, all of which fed it's subsequent conquests.

Pat
He who lives by the sword, should train with it frequently.

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peeved
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Re: G33/40 rifle with Brandenburgers?

#8

Post by peeved » 25 Oct 2016, 18:56

Gangster gun/weapon appears to have been normal contemporary British military jargon when it came to "machine carbines"; cf.
9 mm Suomi M/31; Tested 29 September 1936 (according to the report "This is probably
the best "gangster" weapon we have seen"), SAC report 1697 from 15 September 1937.
from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... n#p1240749

Markus

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Frederick Prinz
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Re: G33/40 rifle with Brandenburgers?

#9

Post by Frederick Prinz » 12 May 2017, 22:48

My recollection is that I've seen pay books with the G.33/40 listed, but will have to try and find my digital copies for confirmation as to the units involved. For the Czech Vz.24 rifles, they were issued to some W/SS units as the attached photo illustrates, but it's one of the exceptions as most show the Kar.98k. Best Regards, Fred
Attachments
W-SS Vz. 24 in combat.jpg

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