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"Top 10 Combat Handguns"

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.

Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

Postby The Edge on 25 Jul 2008 12:25

Old true is that "size don't matter" ( :roll: ).

Most important thing is to hit your opponent. It really not metters did you miss with .45 or .32; next, hit placement is also the major factor - again, .32 in the head is far more productive than .45 in hip. In short-range combat you need to incapacitate the opponent in shortest time possible - again, two hits with .32 works better than one with .45. Today lot of soldiers carry protective vests, superb helmets, etc. - your pistol slug could qualify just as "pain in the chest", regardless of caliber.

Why mentioning .32 ACP caliber? Well, majority of used sidearms in WW-I (real close-combat) were .32s. Situation in WWII was improved only a little - again, many handguns carried were .32s, .380s, 8mm Nambus, etc. More people is killed with a .32 than a .45 (regretably, lot of cases were shoting up the captives). Even the soldiers armed with 9mm or .45 pistols received so little training that they probably could not hit a moving target beyond "point-blank" range. (Lot of policemen today are no better with their handguns; anything serious than domestic dispute ends with "calling the backup"; if the firefight did occur, it either one-shot kill at two feet or 100% misses at 5-10m).

So, if we talk about "Combat handgun", we're not talking about either Military or Police, maybe just the specialised formations inside them - who used them rarely. "Combat handgun" is a category mostly for civilians, who are not allowed to carry something really efficient - and have to carry them hidden. (Only real advantage handguns have over the rest of small arms is concealed carry.)

So, I'm a civilaian and I need a "combat handgun" (What for? Let's say my ex-wife is a maniac and have access to various sizes of kitchen knifes). What to choose?
1) I want to carry it hidden - so, nothing too cumbersome - it has to be compact and light.
2) I don't have time & money for serious pistol training - so, nothing too complicated or demanding.
3) I can spot my ex-wife on qiute a long range (and run away from her) - to caught me, she would be using both short distance and surprise - so I need something easy & fast to operate (nothing "cocked & locked", "conditon three", etc.)
4) She is not a expert fighter too - realy good to cut something with the knife (or stab it in my back as a "target of opportunity"), but she could also "borrow" a handgun from his new victim (boyfriend) at best - so, as I should not expect an attack with assault gun, LMG or RPG, I really don't need something with great determent/firepower/range/price tag.

Most advisers would suggest .38 Spl snub revolver, .380 DA-only pocket pistol or even some of now-available 9mm compacts. I think they all are fine, but my ex-wife could be a tough bitch, so I would probably go for .44 Spl "Bulldog" revolver (5-shot, 3-inch barrel) firing 250-grain LSWC slugs (standard pressure, not +P rated). I think I could menage this(some vizits to firing range would do the trick - plus it's fun too), and - in case of passionate women - size do metters! :D
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

Postby Hauptmann Kloss on 25 Jul 2008 12:57

The Edge wrote:....
Most advisers would suggest .38 Spl snub revolver, .380 DA-only pocket pistol or even some of now-available 9mm compacts. I think they all are fine, but my ex-wife could be a tough bitch, so I would probably go for .44 Spl "Bulldog" revolver (5-shot, 3-inch barrel) firing 250-grain LSWC slugs (standard pressure, not +P rated). I think I could menage this....



I have .44Spl, there is nothing in firing it. Basically same as .45 ACP. Slugs do look impressive tho, specially CCI Blazers with giant cavity.
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

Postby The Edge on 25 Jul 2008 13:21

Hauptmann Kloss wrote:I have .44Spl, there is nothing in firing it. Basically same as .45 ACP. Slugs do look impressive tho, specially CCI Blazers with giant cavity.


1) I don't want something "extraordinary"; otherwise I'll go for .44 Magnum.
2) .45 ACP is a winner too, but it would not fit K-frame revolver
3) Ammo is nothing without the proper gun. I would like to fire .44 Spl from large frame revolver for fun, but this is not my choice for self-defence carry gun. This one is - http://www.charterfirearms.com/products ... 74420.html
4) Yes, 200-grain Blazer is "choice ammo" for compact .44 Specials, but I want my ex-wife looks as handsome on the funeral as on the wedding day - nice, clean, deep penetration is what I'm looking for :wink: (plus rather cheap ammo).
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

Postby Hauptmann Kloss on 25 Jul 2008 16:34

The Edge wrote:...1) I don't want something "extraordinary"; otherwise I'll go for .44 Magnum.
2) .45 ACP is a winner too, but it would not fit K-frame revolver
3) Ammo is nothing without the proper gun. I would like to fire .44 Spl from large frame revolver for fun, but this is not my choice for self-defence carry gun. This one is - http://www.charterfirearms.com/products ... 74420.html
4) Yes, 200-grain Blazer is "choice ammo" for compact .44 Specials, but I want my ex-wife looks as handsome on the funeral as on the wedding day - nice, clean, deep penetration is what I'm looking for :wink: (plus rather cheap ammo).


You do not want any "magnums" for defensive pistol that might be fired indoors. I know what Bulldog is. I have similar gun, just hammerless DAO.
If you are to fire those 240 grain and up bullets, do not expect it to last long tho. Your better choice be S&W Thunder Ranch , they are on sale now at CDNN.
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

Postby Mark V on 25 Jul 2008 19:45

... some of you don't have good enough lawyers - ex-wives bow under NOTHING but very good lawyer (demon acknowledges only superior evilness).
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

Postby Hauptmann Kloss on 25 Jul 2008 20:01

Mark V wrote:... some of you don't have good enough lawyers - ex-wives bow under NOTHING but very good lawyer (demon acknowledges only superior evilness).


Maybe in Finland. :P

Beside I gather that poor Serbian woman is rather on large side, like 100-150 kg and swing pasta pin like baseball pro :D
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

Postby The Edge on 27 Jul 2008 17:25

Well, I GOT a good lawyer - female one, of course. She is one of reasons my ex is sooo p_ssed (poor wife changed 3 male ones so far).

Anyway, that was (not exactly pure) FICTIONAL situation.

My choice for 250-grainer was kinda pre-planing. (My good friend* had a die for them for his .44 Redhawk.) Since .44 Spls are hard to find here, I have to rely on reloads for enough ammo (I'm talking future; at this moment I have to stick on my "wondernine" CZ-99)
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(* btw, best men on my wedding)
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

Postby Hauptmann Kloss on 27 Jul 2008 18:04

The Edge wrote:

My choice for 250-grainer was kinda pre-planing. (My good friend* had a die for them for his .44 Redhawk.) Since .44 Spls are hard to find here, I have to rely on reloads for enough ammo (I'm talking future; at this moment I have to stick on my "wondernine" CZ-99)


How do you like that CZ-99? I have deal on something called ZDA, being "updated version of CZ-99". I find yugo pistols influenced with SIG designs to the point of being compatible. I have Hrvatsky Samokres compact 9mm and it will take SIG226 mags with minor modification, that allow to use main gun mags in backup. I like that very much.
How bout ZDA, CZ-99? Would SIG mags fit? Is frame steel or aluminum? Reliability?
I got me lately M-95A carbine in .223 caliber and I`m very much impressed with CZ.
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

Postby The Edge on 28 Jul 2008 08:49

Hauptmann Kloss wrote:How do you like that CZ-99? I have deal on something called ZDA, being "updated version of CZ-99". I find yugo pistols influenced with SIG designs to the point of being compatible. I have Hrvatsky Samokres compact 9mm and it will take SIG226 mags with minor modification, that allow to use main gun mags in backup. I like that very much.
How bout ZDA, CZ-99? Would SIG mags fit? Is frame steel or aluminum? Reliability?
I got me lately M-95A carbine in .223 caliber and I`m very much impressed with CZ.


So far, I'm quite satisfied - my one is both accurate & reliable. (Only problem so far was not enogh stroke for some really tough primers - 9mm ammo made in Yugoslavia 1949-1950, mainly for SMGs; other users find some of springs not enough durable - I suspect these were 1993-95 middlings for local market)
Since CZ-99 was designed in relatively short time (on USA dealer demand, late 1980s), I believe quite a lot was "borrowed from SIG 226", but with number of modification too.
Material of frame is aluminum alloy. Slide is one-piece steel (export models had better grade one than on my example).
New, current CZ-999 model have some improvements over older, somewhat hasty CZ-99. (Personally I like the best the "Golan" compact variant, made for export; looking to find one)
CZ carabines are developed from original Mauser 98 action. That made CZ the only manufacturer in the world who still use this classic design. CZ is now in a deal with Remington, so some 75% of production go to USA.
(To be clear, all the time I'm talking about "Crvena Zastava" models, from Serbian arms manufacturer)

SIG 220-series (plus their clones) are definitely one of "top 10 combat handguns" designs. (My favourite is 225 compact)
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

Postby Hauptmann Kloss on 29 Jul 2008 15:19

The Edge wrote:
Hauptmann Kloss wrote:....
I got me lately M-95A carbine in .223 caliber and I`m very much impressed with CZ.


...
CZ carabines are developed from original Mauser 98 action. That made CZ the only manufacturer in the world who still use this classic design. CZ is now in a deal with Remington, so some 75% of production go to USA.
(To be clear, all the time I'm talking about "Crvena Zastava" models, from Serbian arms manufacturer)..


Yes Zastava, but I wasn`t thinking about Mausers but self loader.


So you never tried SIG mag in your CZ99?
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

Postby The Edge on 30 Jul 2008 12:56

That's something like this one? :roll: http://www.zastava-arms.co.yu/images/ci ... /14501.htm

Zastava made so many prototypes/limited series/production models during 1990s that I simply can't guess what is what without longer explanation (from .22 LR double-barrel "Derringer" pistol to .50 BMG sniper). I thought you meant M85 "Mini-Mauser", one of really sensible models (also asked to produce by USA import company - then it was "Interarms").

I haven't used 226 so far, sorry. :(
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

Postby Hauptmann Kloss on 30 Jul 2008 14:00

The Edge wrote:That's something like this one? ....


Not this one. From page I linked bellow, one with folding stock and 18inch barrel. It is stamped M-95A, but website say M-90A. I couldn`t figure out difference myself.
It was made in 1997, so tritium inserts are dim and need replacement.

http://www.zastava-arms.co.yu/images/vo ... gleski.htm
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

Postby The Edge on 30 Jul 2008 14:46

I give a try on one of such guns (7.62x39mm version, a semi-auto model of M70 military series with some cosmetic details - lacking baynet lugs, rifle granade attachment, etc) and I had same "friendly-familiar-feeling" as with my old combat rifle (only the disassembly procedure is different). So it had to be a very sound weapon, although .223 caliber M.90 Zastava military rifles were used only in small numbers (for obvious reasons - lack of money & kinda obsolete design).

Folding stock?! 8O Boy, these Zastava guys would sell anything to make a buck! (One of their dealers - my friend and above mentioned rifle owner - got from them a very long barrel for CZ-99 pistol. It protracts 4 inches from the frame and outside part has smaller diameter then the inside barrel. He said it is designed for better accuracy :lol: :lol: :lol: , but it was obviously a prototype barrel for integral-silencer model; only the gas escape holes were not drilled)

(Btw, we are so out-of-topic now. That's PMs are for. :wink: )
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