Lahti L33\39

[ernesto73]

companions welcome!
I'm sorry, I write through the electronic translator.
Need help finding information, photos and diagrams of the Finnish gun LS 33 \ 39.
such as in the photo.
the lower picture is mine. remnants of a machine gun were found at the crash site of the Finnish bomber.
Thanks in advance!

[John Hilly]

Hope this helps!
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/LMG1.htm

With best regards
Juha-Pekka

[Juha Tompuri]

Something related:
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/AAMG.htm
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t#p1427152

Regards, Juha

[JTV]

What I can tell you quite certain is that it is not L-33/39. This is because L-33/39 was used as anti-aircraft machinegun and was not installed to aircraft and they were also manufactured very late in the war. Their manufacturing didn't start until year 1943, only 150 were manufactured and they were made so late, that it is uncertain if they saw any use in World War 2.

What you might have could be one of the earlier models - L-33, L-33/36 or L-34. Unfortunately I have not seen any diagrams for any of these weapons in any of the Finnish publications, so identifying the exact model is very difficult or possibly even impossible. What complicates matters even more is that at least L-33 and L-33/36 were made in several slightly different versions, which for example had used cartridge case extraction hole in different sides of the weapon. Does it have any markings left?, the photos of these these weapons show that the manufacturer's markings were usually marked to right side of the weapon's receiver.

I tried comparing the receivers to photos of the L-33, L-34, L-33/36 and L-33/39 that I have in some books. What is somewhat confusing, that at least in the first look I could not find any version, which would have been an exact match to the one in your photo.

BTW: These weapons are not related to Lahti-Saloranta M/26 light machinegun, but a completely different line of development.

Jarkko

[ernesto73]

Thanks for your help!
it is 100% Finnish production.
should mark VKT/
This model is chambered for 7.62 / 54R

[JTV]

Thanks for your help!
it is 100% Finnish production.
should mark VKT/
This model is chambered for 7.62 / 54R

Unfortunately just having VKT-marking doesn't always guarantee that the particular weapon is Finnish-made, when it comes to machineguns. I for example have deactivated Finnish-captured Soviet Degtjarev M/27 light machinegun, which has also VKT-marking (in addition of Kovrov markings). During World War 2 State Rifle Factory (Valtion Kivääritehdas = VKT) was main Finnish repair facility also for foreign-manufactured machineguns and apparently the factory typically marked the weapons it had repaired with VKT-marking.

I double-checked the Finnish books that I have, but I still can't find exact match to what you have - I have a feeling that have seen a receiver like that before, but I can't pin it down. Unfortunately relatively little has been written about aircraft-machineguns that Aimo Lahti designed, so there are not too many sources. The best source available seems to be "Finnish Military Small Arms 1918 - 1988, part 2" by Markku Palokangas, which has 11 pages about these machineguns. There were some quite mixed lots among them and quite a few variations, all of which the books I have may not cover.

Do you mind if I repost your question to Finnish-only dicussion forum (belonging to Weapons historical society of Northern-Kymenlaakso region) with some of your photos? The particular forum is number one Finnish discussion forum for collectors of historical firearms, so there is a good chance they might be able to provide more information.

Jarkko

[Juha Tompuri]

I think there are certain similarities to the L/33 quiz-photo at the other link I posted earlier.
Did "foreign" mg's have fire rate accelerators, as at the drawing (item no 14) and as sems to be also at the photos?
Here a larger pic from the book Keksintöjen kirja (Book of inventions) from 1936:

[Scharf]

Hi,
As far as I can see it is also Tikkakoski-stamped. I strongly believe it is Lahti, but which model, that I do not know for sure.

Scharf

[Kocur]

Did "foreign" mg's have fire rate accelerators, as at the drawing (item no 14) and as sems to be also at the photos?

They sure did, Browning's M1917 (and subsequent models) being the prime example of that particular solution of accelerator (i.e. a lever accelerator).

Btw. the drawing is basically the same, as in Aimo Lahti's 1933 patent, so the weapon in question must be of his design, which was also substantially different to his M/26 lmg.

[JTV]

The structural design shown in the drawing provided by Juha indeed seems very similar to the particular weapon. Especially the bolt design (bolt is riding on top of the slide, which are both moving inside the receiver), that is typical to this line of machineguns, is obviously similar, so the particular weapon must be one of Lahti's aircraft machineguns. What is bugging me is that the sides of the receiver in this particular weapon don't look anything like any of the versions, that I can find from the books - the particular weapon has its receiver strenghtened in area around the extraction hole, but there is nothing like that visible in any photo in any of the books.

Below is photo showing L-33 receiver to give some idea what the receivers used in these machineguns typically look like. Photo taken by yours truly many years ago in Sotamuseo in Helsinki.

Jarkko

[ernesto73]

You can use my photos in other forums.
presumably there plane fell Bristol Blenheim Mark-4 "
the accident site is located just north of the city Pitkyaranta.
about 20 km from the airfield Woman.
may have the opportunity to learn what technique was based there and what weapons to stand?
If necessary, I'll do more pictures.

[ernesto73]

all the same it Lahti.
Here's a photo with a gun forum.

http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/36/653777-0.html

[JTV]

I got reply from one of the Finnish experts in that other forum. It seems quite certain that you have remains of L-33 machinegun (the same weapon as the photo I provided and in the drawing provided by Juha) , which was used as turret-machinegun of Blenheim I. The serial number visible in one your photos proved very useful in the matter - L-33 machineguns all had serial numbers in between 100 - 187, while later L-33/36 has serial numbers mainly in between 200 - 300.

Some info about L-33: As to be expected this was the first version of aircraft-machinegun designed by Aimo Lahti to be manufactured. He designed the first prototype in year 1932, unlike the later models it had pistol grip and "knob-shaped" butt (visible in the photo I provided) - later models had rather similar grips as in Maxim-machineguns. The official rate of fire was 950 rounds/minute, but the expert who replied had tested one and found out the rate or fire to be around 1,100 rounds/minute (might possibly due to ammunition used?). The weapon is recoil-action and uses 75-round removable magazines. Lahti designed also special sight for this machinegun-model - the sight was designed to adjust itself properly with flow of air. Like all Lahti's aircraft machineguns also L-33 is very rare, only two small manufacturing series were ever made:
- 1st manufacturing series: serial numbers 100 - 120, delivered April - May of 1935.
- 2nd manufacturing series: serial numbers 121 - 180, delivered Air Force January 1936.
There were some serial numbers missing among the weapons of 2nd manufacturing series - probably due to some receivers already marked with serial numbers not being accepted by quality control in the factory, so total production of L-33 machinegun was only about 80 weapons. After World War 2 most remaining L-33 were modified as anti-aircraft machineguns or as "assistant-weapons" used as training equipment on top of the automatic cannons (they were rigged on top of a cannon such a way that during firing practice the machinegun fired instead of the cannon). Finnish military museum has five remaining L-33 machineguns in original condition in its collections.

The expert I mentioned was able to provide some sources about the machineguns used in Finnish Blenheim bombers and the information is now below. It seems that L-33/36 marked in these documents could be L-33 machinegun or L-33/36 machinegun.

According Finnish Air Force document "BL-tyyppinen lentokone Asevarusteet" (Weapons equipment in BL-type aircraft) dated 20th of March 1944 Blenheim I aircraft had following machineguns:
- BL-104 - BL-121: Lahti L-33/36 BL
- BL-134 - BL-146: Vickers
- BL-146 - BL-158 ja BL-109: Lahti L-33/36 BL
- BL-161 - BL 190 ja BL-191 - BL-195: Browning

Finnish Air Force Blenheim manual, machineguns used in various manufacturing series of Blenheim:
- 1st series: L-33/BL
- 2nd series L-33/36/IX
- 3rd and 4th series: Vickers G.O. M I
- 5th and 6th series: Browning FN

Some Blenheim (at least BL-132 and BL-160) were modified for L-33/36 dual-machinegun (basically two L-33/36 machinegun side by side).

Jarkko

[ernesto73]

on my machine different numbers.
on the trunk 121.
on the housing 224A

[JTV]

on my machine different numbers.
on the trunk 121.
on the housing 224A

I posted to the earlier mentioned Finnish-language only forum and asked if the 224 A is also a serial number. If it is a serial number, than you may actually have a L-33/36 with (spare) barrel originally manufactured for L-33. According Palokangas's book L-33/36 had serial numbers in 200 - 300 range. It was also common to manufacture spare barrels for machineguns and mark them with the serial number of the specific weapon, for which they were intended. As far as I know the barrels used in L-33, L-33/36, L-34 and L-33/39 delivered to Finnish military were all similar, so spare barrel from L-33 should fit also to L-33/36.

Jarkko