Gebirgsjäger SMG in WW2

[keith A]

I have seen photos of Mountain troops with MP 38/40 and what may be an early STEN MkII (probably a captured partisan weapon) but has anyone evidence of them using other Axis SMGs? For example the Erma-Vollmer, MP28 or MP34, Beretta 38A (I have seen German soldiers with this weapon but not GBJ)....? I am particularly interested in use of these weapons in Italy and Yugoslavia but really any evidence would be good.

regards

Keith

[Poot]

Are you referring to pics of WSS Gebirgsjagers with sub-guns, or 'regular' Heer Gebirgsjagers? There are some well known pics of 7th SS troops and commanders in Yugoslavia with them. I've seen pics of them carrying MP-28s and a few of them handling what appear to be British Stens, no doubt recovered subsequent to an SOE organized supply drop.
Pat

[keith A]

Thanks Pat. I am more interested in the Heer units.

[Poot]

The use of a pistol caliber weapon by mountain troops always confused me. Something that would have offered longer effective range and less bullet drop would seem to have been far superior, even at the cost of reduced rate of fire (but that's what a light machine gun is for).

On a related note, they would seem to have been excellent candidates for fielding StG-44s, especially with the benefits of longer engagement distance than a sub-gun and ammo weight that was lighter than 8mm ball.

Pat

[keith A]

I wonder if that's behind some soldiers making the decision to use the Beretta 38? Longer range and better accuracy than an MP38/40?

Keith

[Poot]

My short answer is, "I don't know for sure," but I really doubt there would be a substantial difference as they're both pistol caliber weapons. They would still lack the ability to engage an enemy accurately at combat distances when compared to rifles. The advantages of a fully stocked weapon (being able to achieve a good cheek weld, and to help steady it using a support hand or rock/backpack when prone or taking cover would be just two of several advantages that a sub-gun would lack.

I've heard that some troops used their rifles as ersatz trekking poles when mobile. While I don't know for sure if they did this, it would certainly be difficult to do the same with a short sub-gun. Obviously that's not the primary purpose of your rifle, but soldiers cooked food in helmets, too...

While I believe that sub-machine guns had their place in WWII (CQB, 'house-to-house' fighting), I don't think that alpine, foothills or forest environments were part of that. In the modern world, they've been swept aside by select fire, collapsible stock rifles that are far more versatile and are chambered for much more ballistically effective cartridges.
Pat

[keith A]

Hi, thanks again Pat. I have just found an internet resource that shows an "alpine soldier" using an Bergmann MP34. Sadly no details so I can't say whether it's pre-1939 or post, or whether it's actual combat use or just a bit of training.

As you say combat at mid to long range would be less point-and-spray and more select-and-fire. Presumably a Gewehr-43 would give a solution? I note the ski-jaegers were equipped this way (StG-44, Gewehr-43) late in the war.

[Poot]

Hi, thanks again Pat. I have just found an internet resource that shows an "alpine soldier" using an Bergmann MP34. Sadly no details so I can't say whether it's pre-1939 or post, or whether it's actual combat use or just a bit of training.

As you say combat at mid to long range would be less point-and-spray and more select-and-fire. Presumably a Gewehr-43 would give a solution? I note the ski-jaegers were equipped this way (StG-44, Gewehr-43) late in the war.

Exactly. And while not in alpine environments per se, there are also pics of 6th SS mountain troops in the east shouldering SVT-40 rifles on patrol.
Best,
Pat

[SVaaka]

About this issue about troops choosing their own weapon. Well I do not think in any army a individual soldier can "choose" their weaponery - they are to issued a gun or guns. Only possiability is to pick up gun from the ground left behind by enamy or one own dead comerades. In USA army picking up a german SMG would have been really stupid cause extra ammo could have been recieved only same way and not so reliable.
German troops exspecially by the end of war or better during the entire war ( WW II ), were suffering from constant lack of SMG's and automaticpistols, so needless to say - they took what ever they get. Same thing in Finland - when there was little to get you get what you get.

[Poot]

About this issue about troops choosing their own weapon. Well I do not think in any army a individual soldier can "choose" their weaponery - they are to issued a gun or guns. Only possiability is to pick up gun from the ground left behind by enamy or one own dead comerades. In USA army picking up a german SMG would have been really stupid cause extra ammo could have been recieved only same way and not so reliable.
German troops exspecially by the end of war or better during the entire war ( WW II ), were suffering from constant lack of SMG's and automaticpistols, so needless to say - they took what ever they get. Same thing in Finland - when there was little to get you get what you get.

I don't think 'choice' ever really entered into the discussion, at least among the troops themselves. Weapons allocation and distribution would have been decided for the troops at the command/logistical level, and they would likely field what they had already trained on.

Using captured ammo for captured weapons didn't seem to deter German troops in the east, at least in the first few years. I'd be more concerned with being fired on by my own troops, who might mistake the acoustic signature of my weapon for one being used by the enemy. This was a very real concern in Vietnam, when US troops wanted to employ captured AK-47s against VC/NVA troops. The difference in sound could draw fire from one's own troops.
Pat

[SVaaka]

Well I was referring to Keith's question.
In eastern front germans captured a hell of a lot of different kind of armament and also ammo - so problem was not so great compared to US forces after D-day in France - if one would decide to use MP-40 instead of Garand - if you get the point? All ammo you would get had to be picked from enamy. Also in east certainly germans and sovjest had quite a difference in clothing and headgear so problems with mixing friends to foe were not so great.

[keith A]

I hace seen a picture of Heers Gebirgsjaegers at rest in the Caucasus with at least one of them equipped with an SVT-40 so your point is well made. The SVT-40 seems to have been a very popular weapon with the Germans in Russia. The use of the Beretta 38 in both Italy and France could be linked to the nature of combat where distances were not so long. I assume the 9mm ammunition was compatible with standard MP40s, STENs and Thompson M1A1?

regards

Keith

[jwsleser]

I've heard that some troops used their rifles as ersatz trekking poles when mobile.

The G33/40 Mauser had features designed to allow the rifle to be used as an alpenstock. The steel butt plate was a cup designed that better protected the wood butt. There was a metal plate fastened on the left side of the butt to protect the wood from the hobnails/ice cleats of the mountain boots. With these changes, the Gebirgsjägers weren't issued an alpenstock but used their rifles.

Pista! Jeff

[Poot]

SVaaka-
I think the main point is that soldiers used enemy weapons at their peril. Two reasons make the point, the first I've already mentioned. If you associate a certain quality of sound and rate of fire with a known type of enemy weapon, then hearing that near you (but not being able to see it) could and did draw 'friendly fire.' It's not theoretical, and not limited to any stage of the war. Monumental amounts of captured arms and ammunition were captured by the Germans from the Soviets in 1941-42, probably enough to occupy niches in their supply chain for many years, and even on the western front. SVT-40 rifles are documented photographically as having been used on the Atlantic Wall and during the Normandy campaign. Regarding clothing, I think that the later the war went on the more similar German winter clothing became to the Soviet's clothing. This was nothing more than imitating that which proved to work.

Jeff-
Exactly, and a perfect example!

Keith-
Yes, they all used 9x19mm ammunition ('9mm Parabellum/Luger') except for the Thompson, which was chambered in 45ACP.

Pat

[Gustav_SC]

I agree that mountain fighting requires longer range weapons. This is why in Afghanistan, with engagements happening at ~1000m distances, US forces began issuing squad and platoon level "designated marksman" rifles in 7.62NATO to supplement the 5.56NATO general issue rifles, whose max effective ranges is around 600m. A 9mm or .45ACP SMG just wouldn't cut it.

But, as above, soldiers take what they are issued. An SMG is better than nothing.