91/30 Mosin Nagant vs Mauser 98k

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.
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JTV
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Re: 91/30 Mosin Nagant vs Mauser 98k

#16

Post by JTV » 13 Dec 2014, 10:25

MIEKAT wrote:Another mosin/nagan cool feature sticky bolt sindrome.
Typical reasons for which are:
1. Wrong kind of 7.62 mm x 54R ammunition:
- Some ammunition like 60's - 70's Czechoslovakian light ball just does not work well in bolt guns (but is excellent for semi- and full-auto use).
- Not all Mosin-Nagant rifles have the same cartridge chamber. Finnish military liked a little bit tighter cartridge chamber (drawings showing differences of measurements in between 7.62 x 54R and Finnish 7.62 x 53R chamber can be found in Wikipedia), plus both Finnish military and Civil Guard liked to test cartridge chamber throat area designs in search of design to produce best shooting accuracy with boat-tail bullets. In addition Civil Guard also liked bit tighter rifling, so much of the rifles manufactured for it have .3085 barrel.
2. Poorly cleaned cartridge chamber - storage grease can be difficult to remove. It also good idea to check chamber for burrs.

When a military rifle of any kind gets manufactured in millions during a war, one simply cannot expect all those millions of rifles manufactured under duress to be perfect. There is obviously going to be issues with quality control, but how large is the percentage of rifles that actually have these issues is really what matters - as long as the percentage is small enough, there is no real problem.

Here are just few videos about Mauser K98k:







Not all 7.92 mm x 57IS ammo work that well in all K98k rifles either:



Oldie, but goldie. This one is usually caused by the less-destructive one from the two typical mistakes by user:


IMHO - I doubt there was much of practical difference in between K98k and m/91-30 when it came to percentage of rifles that had quality-control related issues. Admitted lots of those problematic K98k rifles shown in videos seem to be "Soviet-captured".

As for best place to ask about problems with Mosin-Nagant rifles - Collector's Forum in Gunboards:
http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdispla ... -Nagant-HQ

Military Mauser forum in the same discussion groups (Gunboards):
http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdispla ... user-Forum

Jarkko

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Re: 91/30 Mosin Nagant vs Mauser 98k

#17

Post by MIEKAT » 15 Dec 2014, 15:41

Thank you for this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-3QRX3vuq4

This is good example of mauser bolt absolute superiority vs mosin bolt :lol:
If somebody doing wrong way with mauser bolt it nothing happens the bolt is fully functional 8O

In the case of mosin bolt if illiterate peasant mis-using of connecting bar as a tool for rotating firing pin during dismantling/re-assembling of bolt - procedure it will breaks.

So here you can do conclusion mauser is better for illiterate peasants of Mexico,Turkey,Slam... :no adjustments head spacing no breaks after wrong doing.
JTV wrote:
M/91-30: One can simply drop a individual cartridge to chamber and close bolt on to of it.
Can you explain more detail what do you mean.Can you do this operation with standard M/91-30 ?


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JTV
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Re: 91/30 Mosin Nagant vs Mauser 98k

#18

Post by JTV » 15 Dec 2014, 20:23

MIEKAT wrote: In the case of mosin bolt if illiterate peasant mis-using of connecting bar as a tool for rotating firing pin during dismantling/re-assembling of bolt - procedure it will breaks.
The connection bar is not made from steel - not glass. So, how the connection bar actually may break is probably result from years of misuse, which follow the pattern: Misuse it as a tool for turning firing pin, once its "fork" starts bending open due to this misuse, hammer it back into original shape - repeat this dozens or hundreds of times and ultimately the steel will break.
So here you can do conclusion mauser is better for illiterate peasants of Mexico,Turkey,Slam... :no adjustments head spacing no breaks after wrong doing.
Nope, the illiterate peasants would disassemble the Mauser bolt first time without knowing to leave safety on - and then they would be scrathing their heads why they can't get the bolt back into the rifle - until some-one tells them how or they would get killed - which ever would happen first. That is why even illiterate peasants are supposed to get basic military training before being sent to battle - no matter what rifle they are issued with.

Mauser 98 - rifle that succeeded loosing World War - not just once , but twice. :lol:
JTV wrote:
M/91-30: One can simply drop a individual cartridge to chamber and close bolt on to of it.
Can you explain more detail what do you mean.Can you do this operation with standard M/91-30 ?
Just push or drop cartridge to cartridge chamber and close bolt behind it - simple as that. The extractor claw is flexible enough to jump over the cartridge rim and grab it in correct manner. During my shooting career of almost 30 years have done this maybe few thousand times with wide variety of rifles that share the same basic Mosin-Nagant bolt design - including m/91-30. Much of the competition shooters here actually prefer this method of loading. Try the same thing with K98k and one of two things is going to break down - cartridge or extractor.

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Re: 91/30 Mosin Nagant vs Mauser 98k

#19

Post by MIEKAT » 17 Dec 2014, 21:07

JTV wrote:
The connection bar is not made from steel - not glass. So, how the connection bar actually may break is probably result from years of misuse, which follow the pattern: Misuse it as a tool for turning firing pin, once its "fork" starts bending open due to this misuse, hammer it back into original shape - repeat this dozens or hundreds of times and ultimately the steel will break.
Like I wrote before this part problem is not age not years of misuse but it is design feature.It confirm Russian and Soviet scientist, weapons designer, professor Vladimir Grigoryevich Fyodorov. Scan from Fedorov book evidently show that new very good made(no mass production) during 1890-1981 trial had six connecting bar breaks.Age and misuse only increase number of breaks.Other Russian gun expert wrote(underline text number one in the scan ) :connecting bar breaks was common and second reason for mosin rifle failure.First reason was interrupter problems(underline text number two in the scan )
mosin10.png
JTV wrote:Just that you know - the most typical part to break in Mosin-Nagant bolt is extractor claw
So russias sources show that you are fully an incompetent person.
JTV wrote:Mauser 98 - rifle that succeeded loosing World War - not just once , but twice.
This type of arguments usually use : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGZaiHokVAI :lol:
Battle of Isandlwana.The battle was a decisive victory for the Zulus and caused the defeat of the first British invasion of Zululand.The Zulus were equipped mainly with the traditional assegai iron spears and cow-hide shields. The British and colonial troops were armed with the state-of-the-art[16] Martini-Henry breech-loading rifles and two 7-pounder (3-inch, 76 mm) mountain guns deployed as field guns [17][18] as well as a rocket battery so best weapon in this case are assegai spear :idea:
JTV wrote:Just push or drop cartridge to cartridge chamber and close bolt behind it - simple as that
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDRxD2oPXQs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWxsC5iXyyU
Nothing important insert round into magazine I think the same speed or even quickest method particularly if you have shaken hands under stress.
So let's continue fun :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_AP7A0XvWw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9wbxOLJ0hw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rq8yolPHDU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pkCMKuJVTE

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Re: 91/30 Mosin Nagant vs Mauser 98k

#20

Post by JTV » 17 Dec 2014, 22:41

MIEKAT wrote:
JTV wrote:Just that you know - the most typical part to break in Mosin-Nagant bolt is extractor claw
So russias sources show that you are fully an incompetent person.
I am not about to loose any sleep over that. :lol:

Once you have lived this as old you will notice that the world has two kinds of people - those who read books and due to that that some of them may think that they know everything about the subject after reading about it - and those who know about the subject because it is part of their everyday life and they have plenty of personal experience about it. :milwink:

Attached is photo that I took few minutes ago. It shows bolts from some of my rifles - you may recognise the bolt type. It also shows spare extractors that I dug from my spare parts box for firearms - I used to have ten spare extractors, but now I got only four left. Guess what happened to the other six? I also got bunch of other spare parts for Mosin-Nagant, just in case. These would include triggers, springs, safeties, screws etc - but no connecting bars, since neither I or any any of my fellow shooters have never had need for spare connecting bar - NONE.

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Re: 91/30 Mosin Nagant vs Mauser 98k

#21

Post by MIEKAT » 04 Apr 2015, 17:49

JTV wrote:
I am not about to loose any sleep over that. :lol:

Once you have lived this as old you will notice that the world has two kinds of people - those who read books and due to that that some of them may think that they know everything about the subject after reading about it - and those who know about the subject because it is part of their everyday life and they have plenty of personal experience about it. :milwink:

Attached is photo that I took few minutes ago. It shows bolts from some of my rifles - you may recognise the bolt type. It also shows spare extractors that I dug from my spare parts box for firearms - I used to have ten spare extractors, but now I got only four left. Guess what happened to the other six? I also got bunch of other spare parts for Mosin-Nagant, just in case. These would include triggers, springs, safeties, screws etc - but no connecting bars, since neither I or any any of my fellow shooters have never had need for spare connecting bar - NONE.
Nice orally job thank you. :D but you know here is virtual world so this photo nothing to prove.I've asked hunters who have mosins some of them had problem with connecting bars so russians and usa mosins owners are right this part is not reliable. 8O



How many mosins you have met in your life maybe 1 maybe 100 but it is little.That is a really wide generalization considering that is hour bolts - from how many millions of rifles. :P So I provide evidence but I've get back nothing.Let's move on

Mosin Nagan common feature is rimlock.It is rifle for suicide :P

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Re: 91/30 Mosin Nagant vs Mauser 98k

#22

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 05 Apr 2015, 19:32

Making apost here so I can track this topic.

One of these days I will be the "illiterate peasant" , when I decide to clean the WWII cosmoline off a "New" Soviet Mosin Nagant -194(3 or 5)? , I bought a few years back and try it out.

Not a bad looking gun, very long. The 2 boxes of bullets(Czech IIRC) I bought for it at $25 each, cost more than the gun $45. Note we sold 100 of these rifles and cases of the same ammo, and nobody came back and complained.

They must still have warehouses of these things in Russia.
Last edited by ChristopherPerrien on 05 Apr 2015, 20:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 91/30 Mosin Nagant vs Mauser 98k

#23

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 05 Apr 2015, 20:00

MIEKAT wrote:
Battle of Isandlwana.The battle was a decisive victory for the Zulus and caused the defeat of the first British invasion of Zululand.The Zulus were equipped mainly with the traditional assegai iron spears and cow-hide shields. The British and colonial troops were armed with the state-of-the-art[16] Martini-Henry breech-loading rifles so best weapon in this case are assegai spear :idea:
Off-topic, but I have to comment

Actually the Martini Henry with a 25" bayonet, had a longer reach than an assegai, and the Henry was held with both hands and the baseplate made a very good club. This rifle In the hands of someone who was trained in bayonet drill, 1 vs 1, the spear holder would be SOL.
Sure at 1;10-20, it didn't matter. But don't take a spear to a bayonet fight. :milwink:

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Re: 91/30 Mosin Nagant vs Mauser 98k

#24

Post by MIEKAT » 07 Apr 2015, 09:02

ChristopherPerrien wrote:
One of these days I will be the "illiterate peasant" , when I decide to clean the WWII cosmoline off a "New" Soviet Mosin Nagant -194(3 or 5)? , I bought a few years back and try it out.

Not a bad looking gun, very long. The 2 boxes of bullets(Czech IIRC) I bought for it at $25 each, cost more than the gun $45. Note we sold 100 of these rifles and cases of the same ammo, and nobody came back and complained.

They must still have warehouses of these things in Russia.
It's like you buy cheep chinese goods you know in advance that will be problems and never complain.
Here some weird mosin nagan problems.




You have possibility lost all rounds :D


You can shoot without trigger :D

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Re: 91/30 Mosin Nagant vs Mauser 98k

#25

Post by Layla Smart » 30 Apr 2015, 12:06

I am not a Guns Expert, but I certainly believe Russian one Mosin Nagant would be slightly better then the German counter part. However non of the allies had any thing to match the STG44 and many other German "technological leap ahead" weapons.
I am a 22 year young girl, a content writer and a amateur Historian.


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Re: 91/30 Mosin Nagant vs Mauser 98k

#27

Post by Gustav_SC » 22 Jun 2015, 18:28

"Better" is an opinion matter.

But, the Mauser type action was used all over the world, bought and paid for after open market studies and selections. South America, USA (Springfield is a Mauser action), various EU nations, Turkey, South Africa, China...

The Mosin was used by USSR and satellite / client states only. No nation that I know of that was looking to buy the best rifle ever selected the Mosin.

I own several of both and have shot both. The Mauser is a higher grade and quality of rifle.

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Re: 91/30 Mosin Nagant vs Mauser 98k

#28

Post by YankeeZulu » 08 Aug 2015, 18:15

Gustav_SC wrote:"Better" is an opinion matter... The Mauser is a higher grade and quality of rifle.
^ X2

Mauser is more ergonomic as well, especially the bolt handles. They both kick like flippin' mules.
<1>

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Re: 91/30 Mosin Nagant vs Mauser 98k

#29

Post by dalek » 28 Nov 2015, 19:59

Gustav_SC wrote:"Better" is an opinion matter.

But, the Mauser type action was used all over the world, bought and paid for after open market studies and selections. South America, USA (Springfield is a Mauser action), various EU nations, Turkey, South Africa, China...

The Mosin was used by USSR and satellite / client states only. No nation that I know of that was looking to buy the best rifle ever selected the Mosin.
Wouldn't that be due to how history played out? When the Mosin was new, its manufacturer (was it state-owned?) was more concerned with filling the Czar order than exporting. Remember when WWI started they had American makers build those rifles and even then they did not have enough. And even then they Czar had to buy other rifles (Winchester 1895 anyone) and even they they did not have enough.

Mauser on the other had seemed to be trying to sell its rifles to as many customers as it could, be them Boers, Japanese, or just some big game hunters. And all of that while fulfilling their military orders back home.

After WWII, the Russians were not doing much trade with the Western world, so logically their traded with their communist allies. Remember China did not buy Mausers after Mr. Mao got the fancy office and started his fashion business. They went to primarily Russian designs which they eventually started making themselves.

Is the Mauser better than the Mosin or vice versa? I don't know. I think they are too close that it is down to personal preference: I read in this very thread someone stating the Mosin had better ergonomics and someone else stating the exact opposite. That shows my point. About the action, the Finns have proven a Mosin can be as slick as any Mauser. Strenght? Mausers are supposed to be the strongest bolt action design out there (Arisakas notwithstanding), and there are people who torture test Mosins and found the only way to kill one, besides being an idiot (idiots are known to be very ingenious), is to completely fill its cartridge with powder dusted from the floor of gunranges. And even then the receiver did not crack. And yes, there is a series of youtube videos for that.

As I said before, I think this boils down to personal preference or religious beliefs, or maybe type of underwear.

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Re: 91/30 Mosin Nagant vs Mauser 98k

#30

Post by Gustav_SC » 30 Nov 2015, 22:27

You make fair points re: "market selection". However, many Mausers were made locally in the country of use under license. So, the production demands in the USSR pre-WWII wouldn't have stopped this arrangement. The USSR was glad to earn revenue wherever it could. I know of no nation that selected Mosins.

After WWII, as you stated, the Warsaw Pact standardized arms and they were made in Poland, China, etc.

Mauser actions are still used for new production hunting rifles all over the world. I don't know of any Mosin actions used for new rifles.

Clearly, both the Mauser and Mosin are functional and robust bolt action service rifles. Like I said, "better" is often an opinion matter.

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