An average Landser with an average Kar98k.....

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Peter
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An average Landser with an average Kar98k.....

#1

Post by Peter » 13 May 2015, 16:45

At what sort of range did the average German rifleman with an average Kar 98k hit his target ?

I'm not thinking of sniper trained marksmen issued with an x4 or x6 scope and a specially picked rifle who could hit something at 800m. I just read "Sniper Ace" by Bruno Sutkus again and I see that most of his hits were at 200-600m, I don't remember one at 700m or more.

Here I'm thinking of an average "Fritz" with an average weapon and no scope, possibly accurate at 150-250m ?

thanks
Peter

Knouterer
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Re: An average Landser with an average Kar98k.....

#2

Post by Knouterer » 16 May 2015, 11:42

There's no simple answer to that ... it depends on your definition of "accurate". An average soldier with a bolt-action rifle should be able to hit a man-sized target at up to 500 m or so, under optimal conditions, i.e. perfect visibility, stationary target, no shooter stress, time to aim carefully, etc. In reality, ordinary riflemen very seldom hit anyone at such ranges, and the vast majority (probably something like 99%) of hits scored were at distances of under 300 m, and mostly a lot closer than that.

In any case, such average riflemen played a relatively minor role in battle. IIRC, in the summer of 1942 a German military commission visited the Eastern Front to study the development of infantry tactics on the ground, and one of their conclusions was that (quoting from memory): "... most infantrymen hardly use their rifles anymore, and the firefight is carried by machine guns, mortars and other heavy weapons." Of course, that probably had a lot to do with the wide open spaces where the fighting took place at that time.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton


Peter
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Re: An average Landser with an average Kar98k.....

#3

Post by Peter » 16 May 2015, 14:53

Thanks Knouterer

I know its awkward to say "average" and "accurate" but the more I read the more it seems that most men hitting what they aimed at were doing it at under 300m.

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Re: An average Landser with an average Kar98k.....

#4

Post by Gustav_SC » 03 Jul 2015, 06:22

The machinegunner at Omaha Beach ("the beast of Omaha"), I forget his name right now, who caused dozens and dozens of casualties at one point had to use his 98k since the MG42 overheated or was damaged or something. The information I read was that he was making head shots at 200m.

You can google that for confirmation. I am typing from memory.

I am sure that some small percentage were good marksmen who actively used those skills. Most weren't. Rifles caused way less casualties than mortars, machineguns and artillery I bet.

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YankeeZulu
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Re: An average Landser with an average Kar98k.....

#5

Post by YankeeZulu » 08 Aug 2015, 18:53

Peter wrote:Here I'm thinking of an average "Fritz" with an average weapon and no scope, possibly accurate at 150-250m ?
That's probably a pretty close assessment, although I would say definitely, not possibly accurate to those ranges. I'd even put it out to 300m.

A decent rifleman w/some experience could easily get 300m out of a K98 w/open sites. Intentional hits from 300-500 were probably very common, even more in the desert. Engagement ranges vary greatly depending on the shooters environment. Urban-area ranges are almost alway the closest.

Consider this: USMC basic rifle qual is done w/open sites out to 500 yards(457m), currently using 20" barreled M16s. Thats accomplished w/a substantially smaller/lighter bullet, far less powerful cartridge, and a shorter barrel than the K98.

Eventually militaries went to smaller, intermediate rifle ammo due to lessons learned from WW2 onward to Vietnam and other conflicts. And statistically average engagement distances were a primary consideration. The Germans were already moving forward w/this using/the 7.92X33 Kurz. NATO didn't start acting on this until the late 50's w/the .308 Winchester(7.61x51 NATO), then the even smaller 5.56x45 NATO.
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Halle
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Re: An average Landser with an average Kar98k.....

#6

Post by Halle » 08 Aug 2015, 19:40

Peter wrote:Thanks Knouterer

I know its awkward to say "average" and "accurate" but the more I read the more it seems that most men hitting what they aimed at were doing it at under 300m.
Which is one of the reasons the Stg44 was invented and issued. .

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YankeeZulu
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Re: An average Landser with an average Kar98k.....

#7

Post by YankeeZulu » 12 Aug 2015, 03:18

Too little, too late. Germany should have gone to a general-issue semi-automatic no later than Operation Husky.
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Peter
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Re: An average Landser with an average Kar98k.....

#8

Post by Peter » 14 Aug 2015, 17:49

thanks guys, some very useful info contributed to that question !

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