Sauer M38(H) pistol and Fallschirmjager

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.
Post Reply
keith A
Member
Posts: 857
Joined: 19 Jan 2012, 17:51

Sauer M38(H) pistol and Fallschirmjager

#1

Post by keith A » 01 Sep 2015, 18:43

I read an account today that stated this was the preferred sidearm of the Fallschirmjager, but until now I had assumed the Luger P08 or P-38 were standard equipment. Can anyone confirm this?

regards

Keith

SVaaka
Member
Posts: 298
Joined: 23 May 2007, 16:50
Location: Finland

Re: Sauer M38(H) pistol and Fallschirmjager

#2

Post by SVaaka » 02 Sep 2015, 01:45

Not very likely. A soldier preferring cal 7.65 pocketpistol over full size 9.00 Pb real sidearm would must have been crazy! And we gotta recall that german paratroopers as far as I remember jumped without their rifle or mp which were send to ground in separate container. I wonder who came across with this idea.


keith A
Member
Posts: 857
Joined: 19 Jan 2012, 17:51

Re: Sauer M38(H) pistol and Fallschirmjager

#3

Post by keith A » 02 Sep 2015, 08:06

It's in Chris McNabs German Paratroopers: The Illustrated History of the Fallschirmjager in WWII. The Sauer was an excellent firearm if a little underpowered for combat. It may be a mistake, and the P-38 seems more likely.

SVaaka
Member
Posts: 298
Joined: 23 May 2007, 16:50
Location: Finland

Re: Sauer M38(H) pistol and Fallschirmjager

#4

Post by SVaaka » 02 Sep 2015, 08:30

That sounds more likely. I think that like all other german formations, the paras suffered from same problem with pistols, atleast later war, they were forced to use what ever they managed to get, because of lack of automaticpistols. But I am pretty much sure, that pistols like P-08, P-38. Radom and FN GP-35 were in top of the wishes :).

keith A
Member
Posts: 857
Joined: 19 Jan 2012, 17:51

Re: Sauer M38(H) pistol and Fallschirmjager

#5

Post by keith A » 02 Sep 2015, 17:48

I have seen German soldiers with three out of the four, (P08, P-38 and GP35) but obviously the Vis 35 Radom is easily confused with the Colt M1911. I was lucky enough to examine one a lot of years ago and was impressed by the addition of the grip safety, although the overall pressed-steel look of the pistol resembled a Tokarev :(

I qualified on a GP-35 in the Army and it's always going to get my vote;

pitfighter
Member
Posts: 61
Joined: 17 May 2010, 23:07

Re: Sauer M38(H) pistol and Fallschirmjager

#6

Post by pitfighter » 02 Sep 2015, 18:10

keith A wrote:I have seen German soldiers with three out of the four, (P08, P-38 and GP35) but obviously the Vis 35 Radom is easily confused with the Colt M1911. I was lucky enough to examine one a lot of years ago and was impressed by the addition of the grip safety, although the overall pressed-steel look of the pistol resembled a Tokarev :(

I qualified on a GP-35 in the Army and it's always going to get my vote;
The GP35 you qualified with and the the P35s made under Nazi occupation that were designated as the Pistole 640b are not exactly comparable quality-wise.
I own a waffen-marked 640b and frankly would not vote on it in a combat situation.

The Radom and P-38 are superior finish and fit, and would be better choices.

A high percentage of Paratroopers are encountered (photographic evidence) carrying handguns, for obvious reasons, I think you might choose a smaller compact frame - it was only for use until you retrieved your rifle, and then you'd have to carry it around as part of your belt kit.
I have also read of FJ favoring the little Sauer, it is a fine handgun, and there was less of the large caliber awe that we have indoctrinated ourselves with in the Post-war era.
The M38(h) had a lot of admirers in Germany and was often engraved and awarded or gifted as an award, it is a fine handgun that still holds it own, for a particular job-set -

The M38(h) is mongst the handguns that Boothroyd recommend as better than the Beretta .25 for James Bond - see better carry mid page :D
http://www.isegoria.net/2011/11/ian-fle ... boothroyd/

"...For carrying on the person the following arms could be chosen: Walther PPK 7.65-mm., Mauser HS c. 7.65-mm. or the Walther PP in 7.65-mm. cal., Sauer Model 38 H in 7.65-mm. calibre.

All of the above were tested for accuracy, endurance, etc., by the U.S. Army Ordnance Corps in 1948. Also included were the Japanese Nambu and the American Colt 1911A1 Auto. In accuracy the Nambu came first, followed by the Russian Tokarev, the Sauer being third. Colonel F. S. Allen, USAF, who wrote an article on the findings of the O.C. tests, concluded by saying that for an emergency defence weapon he would have a lightweight .38 Special, a decision which I heartily agree with..."

SVaaka
Member
Posts: 298
Joined: 23 May 2007, 16:50
Location: Finland

Re: Sauer M38(H) pistol and Fallschirmjager

#7

Post by SVaaka » 03 Sep 2015, 13:29

Well...all german made guns suffered from sinking of the quality - not only FN GP-35. Radoms were really lousy and as a construction - P-08 and P-38 were even in beginning of their production not so sound as GP-35 - P-08 is certainly much older construction, so it is not compareable to FN GP-35. One the reason how many springs does the automaticpistol have to make it operable tells me that P-38 was not so reliable and then comes the issues of magazine capacity and slide construction. And well with deasent use FN-35 could also fire higher loaded 9.00 rounds quite safely - compare this to P-08 or P-38 - both cannot do this without breaking the gun. Accuracy is second hand issue, cause shooting distances when a pistol-type gun is used is some meters, best 10 meters - not 30 meters or so. Pistol is e emergency gun - not a first choise to carry fir instance in charge. Ofcourse many officers carried only pistol, but real front-line guys carried also submashinegun - this was the case in finnish units when submashineguns were available in numbers enough.

pitfighter
Member
Posts: 61
Joined: 17 May 2010, 23:07

Re: Sauer M38(H) pistol and Fallschirmjager

#8

Post by pitfighter » 05 Sep 2015, 08:39

SVaaka - not sure if you're answering, making a statement or disagreeing with my post.
There is nothing in your post that adds to the subject of the Sauer M38(h) being used by FJ, so I presume you were responding to me.

I also qualified on a Browning Hi-Power 9mm (UK) - and have an inherent fondness for them, and own (and have owned) a number of them, as well as Radom, P38 and Lugers - and I agree with you the pre and post-war GP35 is a magnificent combat weapon.

The waffen proofed 640b (not the FN GP35) produced by the FN factory in occupied Belgium has short comings not in accuracy, magazine capacity or design, but in it's questionable construction - read that as potentially/alleged sabotaged.
(That said the 640b original magazine's I have encountered are terribly finished and prone to splitting, the internal ejector's are also prone to failure, front-sights fall off, and other failures are regularly encountered by souls brave/foolhardy enough to shoot these firearms often - in this respect the poor quality is definitely not hypothetical but literal.)

There are some badly constructed Radom's as well as P38's, but on the whole they are less encountered than the poorly constructed 640b's.

Beyond this I have little more to say on the subject - and have offered this second post, as perhaps my last post was difficult to understand.
It's just a fun discussion really anyway - nice to hear your opinion and meet you, the Finn's have some magnificent firearms and firearm history.

As to value of magazine capacity and how important I feel that is - I would prefer a 1911 .45acp to any of the above automatics :D

ChristopherPerrien
Member
Posts: 7051
Joined: 26 Dec 2002, 01:58
Location: Mississippi

Re: Sauer M38(H) pistol and Fallschirmjager

#9

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 05 Sep 2015, 10:40

keith A wrote:I read an account today that stated this was the preferred sidearm of the Fallschirmjager, but until now I had assumed the Luger P08 or P-38 were standard equipment. Can anyone confirm this?
regards
Keith
You don't get to pick your sidearm based on personal preference in most militaries, although there is some leeway for officers in many. Armies or units in armies have to have the same weapon for conformity of ammo and parts. The Fallschirmjager standard side-arm was the P-38 and that is what most had.

SVaaka
Member
Posts: 298
Joined: 23 May 2007, 16:50
Location: Finland

Re: Sauer M38(H) pistol and Fallschirmjager

#10

Post by SVaaka » 05 Sep 2015, 12:30

Well what comes to FN GP-35 magazines, it took quite a ẃhile for canadians to make their magazines work in their Inglish Brownings and addition to this help from certain Mr Diodonne Saive - so there was not so much sabotage needed to make magazine of the GP-35 work - only a bit mistake or careless manufacturing and that´s it. Those very late war Radoms, without safeties and so on are really sad things to see, don´t recall seeing so badly made GP-35s ever. I have owned many GP-35 - needless to say it is on top of my list as personal side arm - even when we nowerdays more modern constructions.

pitfighter
Member
Posts: 61
Joined: 17 May 2010, 23:07

Re: Sauer M38(H) pistol and Fallschirmjager

#11

Post by pitfighter » 05 Sep 2015, 21:05

Ok - Nice to know -

Sabotage of the 640b's made in occupied Belgium supposedly consisted of: spoiling the steel or ruining the heat treatment, so some wartime 640b's are very soft.

This would be consistent with the issues that I have encountered and read about.

But it is heresay - rumor, and I share it as such.

--

When the Germans occupied Belgium in 1940 and took over FN, the Hi-Power was renamed Pistole 640(b) (for Belgisch/Belgium). It was issued to both sides during World War II, with Allied guns made by John Inglis & Co. in Canada. There was a Hi-Power Type II variant, a wartime pistol with the desirable tangent sights, German “WaA 140” Waffenamt (Weapons Office) inspection stamps and walnut stocks (subsequent stocks were Bakelite).

--

ChristopherPerrien you are of course correct - however, I have read that there was an uncommonly high number of FJ whom carried handguns of their own choosing, defying strict regulation - in part due to what happened in Crete.

ChristopherPerrien
Member
Posts: 7051
Joined: 26 Dec 2002, 01:58
Location: Mississippi

Re: Sauer M38(H) pistol and Fallschirmjager

#12

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 06 Sep 2015, 02:20

pitfighter wrote: ChristopherPerrien you are of course correct - however, I have read that there was an uncommonly high number of FJ whom carried handguns of their own choosing, defying strict regulation - in part due to what happened in Crete.
That or they were often stationed in countries near to the point of manufacture(low countries), and their need for a full issue standardized side-arm was gone , since they weren't going to be jumping out of planes anymore, or if they did , they would have had FG42's/SMG's.

Post Reply

Return to “Small Arms”