GenLt Friedrich Kundt PLM vs GenMj Hans Kundt

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Elwyn W
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GenLt Friedrich Kundt PLM vs GenMj Hans Kundt

#1

Post by Elwyn W » 08 Apr 2014, 03:10

In the attached snippet of the 1926 Rangliste, it showed a Mj Kundt last rank as Kmdr 42 Inf Brig. I assume this was Hans Kundt. It is commonly recorded that Friedrich Karl Johann Eduard Kundt (PLM ) was the kmdr of 42 Inf Brig.

Did the Rangliste make a mistake? As Friedrich Karl Johann Eduard Kundt was seperately recorded as Kmdr of 115 ID.


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Elwyn
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abaus
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Re: GenLt Friedrich Kundt PLM vs GenMj Hans Kundt

#2

Post by abaus » 08 Apr 2014, 16:01

Elwyn,

He is Hans Kundt (28.02.1869-26.08.1939). He was in the Kr. Min. until 20.12.1910 when he went off to serve in the Bolivian army. As mobilization approached, he returned to Germany and was attached to the Gen. St. on 01.08.1914 with his old commission as a major. He went on to become commander of GGR 1 and "Führer" of 42. Inf. Brig. He served into the Reichswehr and then, in 1921 wen back to Bolivia, where he served as chief of the Gen. St. from 1921-1933.

Andy


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Elwyn W
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Re: GenLt Friedrich Kundt PLM vs GenMj Hans Kundt

#3

Post by Elwyn W » 09 Apr 2014, 05:55

Thanks Andy.

Both Biblio Verlag and Wegner said Friedrich was the Kmdr of 42 Inf Brig in early 1919. Perhaps they were both wrong and it should have been Hans instead.

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Re: GenLt Friedrich Kundt PLM vs GenMj Hans Kundt

#4

Post by abaus » 09 Apr 2014, 15:08

Elwyn,

Wegner's Stellenbestzung, Vol. 1, page 273 gives Friedrich as commander from 18.01.1919-31.05.1919 and Hans as Führer in July 1918. So, I think we can say both are correct.

Technically, the Ehrenrangliste is incorrect in so far as an Oberst cannot be a brigade commander, as brigades were "commanded" by major generals, though colonels certainly led them with distinction.

Hans was given the Charakter as a Gen.Maj. in May 1920 and Friedrich was commissioned as such on 06.11.1917 .

Small point, but it made a difference in those days.

Andy

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Elwyn W
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Re: GenLt Friedrich Kundt PLM vs GenMj Hans Kundt

#5

Post by Elwyn W » 10 Apr 2014, 03:17

Thanks again, Andy. Can't believe I completely missed Hans as Obst and Führer of 42 Inf Brig in 07.18 listed right underneath Friedrich as Kmdr 18.01.19 - 31.05.18

Is Führer of a unit a WW1 terminology? I see mit der Führung beauftragt and mit der Wahrnehmung der Geschäfte beauftragt surviving onto WW2 but not Führer? Is it an official "position"?


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Re: GenLt Friedrich Kundt PLM vs GenMj Hans Kundt

#6

Post by abaus » 11 Apr 2014, 14:00

Elwyn,

The term Führer was used during WWI, but it was certainly not an official position. It had to do with an officer's rank and the authorities he had at different ranks.

I think we all know why Führer didn't gain acceptance in the Wehrmacht, as that title had already been cooped by a certain Austrian corporal!

Andy

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Re: GenLt Friedrich Kundt PLM vs GenMj Hans Kundt

#7

Post by Dave Danner » 12 Apr 2014, 05:03

I think there were a bunch of considerations, though I am not sure where one would look for the appropriate regulations. As Andy notes, it depends not only on the rank but the authority he exercised. This is a bit of a wild-assed guess on my part, but I would think that among these are:

1. Whether the assignment was viewed as temporary from the outset.
2. Whether the officer held the appropriate rank
3. Whether they'd have to pay the officer more. Weren't there separate Besoldungsgruppen for Kp.Chefs, Btl.Kdrs., Rgts.Kdrs and the like even within their appropriate ranks?
4. Whether you would exercise the Disziplinarbefugnis or other powers specific to that command level.

Even though the more formal terms like m.d.F.b. were used in the official assignments, xxx.-Führer was pretty regularly used in World War II as it was in World War I. In Beurteilungen and the like, they distinguished between Kp.Chef and Kp.Fhr., Btls.Kdr. and Btls.Fhr., etc.

Also, how rigorous was the application of the rules even in World War I? Please note the Kriegsrangliste entry below. The officer in question is three times named Kommandeur, not Führer, of a brigade as an Oberst, and is also name Kommandeur of a division as a Generalmajor. Is this just casual use of the terms by the clerk or adjutant recording the information? Or does that "(G.M.)" after the first brigade command mean he was perhaps given the authority of a Gen.Maj. and the rank of a brigade commander? I've seen a few MWB entries where Oberstleutnants were given the rank of a regimental commander "für die Dauer des mobilen Verhältnisses" - was there something similar for other echelons?
KrRL Eintrag.jpg

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Elwyn W
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Re: GenLt Friedrich Kundt PLM vs GenMj Hans Kundt

#8

Post by Elwyn W » 16 Apr 2014, 02:25

Thank you Dave for your helpful input.

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Elwyn

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