Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

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danebrog
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#196

Post by danebrog » 14 Apr 2014, 17:03

...and the gun in the Captured G Guns photo is a Kberg 88mm isn't it?
err...certainly NO
Holger and me discusssed this 2 years agö. There were just 2 88s: one is in SA (captured Aug 24th at Mlali), the other one was blasted to smithereens at Likuyu on Jan, 24th 1917
It´s doubtful the remains of the second were carried to DAR...

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#197

Post by Chris Dale » 14 Apr 2014, 21:03

We have heard of guns being blasted to Smithereens before, Wenig describes the 10.5cm gun at Mahiwa as being bits of metal flying through the air, a long split up the barrel yet that appears not to have been the case in reality...

Can that first gun on the left in the Captured G Guns photo be identified?

Cheers
Chris


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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#198

Post by CPT Bob » 15 Apr 2014, 17:15

I believe the “88mm Gun” in Pretoria is an 8.8cm SK L/30 and was never mounted on the (1907) SMS Konigsberg.
I am not an expert, but they sure look different than the guns in the Rufiji Delta photos.
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#199

Post by CPT Bob » 15 Apr 2014, 17:34

The guns share an open-frame carriage design with a distinctive curved front. Trail-spade design and wheels are different. (Docteur Moreau, encore?)
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danebrog
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#200

Post by danebrog » 16 Apr 2014, 17:06

We have heard of guns being blasted to Smithereens before
This report came from a British (Rhodesian) source...
I believe the “88mm Gun” in Pretoria is an 8.8cm SK L/30 and was never mounted on the (1907) SMS Konigsberg.
Correct. But it was carried onboard Koenigsberg and was intended as "Hilfskreuzerzuschlag" (guns for auxilliary cruisers)
I am not an expert, but they sure look different than the guns in the Rufiji Delta photos.
Bob, you ARE an expert ;-)
The Rufiji gun is a 4.7cm Hotchkiss and was captured together with two more when Abteilung Delta re-captured the steamer "Adjudant" in the Rufiji Delta

Holger and me made some painstaking research about all the Schutztruppe artillery some time ago:
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=8981
there are most of the details about the guns mentioned above (although in "Teutonic" language) :lol:

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#201

Post by danebrog » 16 Apr 2014, 17:12

This list is an extract from the link above. To date it´s the most accurate and complete list (Was nearly three years of research)

A-Friedensbestand
8 x 3,7 cm Revolverk
11x 3,7-cm SK
3 x 4,7-cm
2 x 6-cm-Kolonial-Kanone
11 x Feldkanone C/73 *
enfernt - doppelt
2 x 4 cm SK
37

B-Zugänge durch Reaktivierung
1 x 6,5-cm Gebirgskanone
1 x C/73 Feldkanone
1 x 15-cm Marinekanone
3

C-Zugänge Marine / Blockadebrecher
"SMS Möwe"
3 x 3,7 cm Revolverkanone 05.Sept.1914

"SS Rubens" (Sperrbrecher A / Kronborg) 18. Febr 1915
2 x 6-cm- Bootslandungskanonen

"SS Marie" 16. März 1916
2 x 7,5-cm-Gebirgskanone Krupp L/14 M1912
4 x 10,5-cm Feld-Haubitze m.98/09 "

„SMS Königsberg“
1 x 6-cm-Bootslandungskanone, 05. August 1914
2 x 8,8-cm-SK 05. Sept. 1914
10 x 10.5 cm SK ab Juli 1915
22

D-Zugänge Beutegeschütze
3 x 4,7-cm-Kanonen Hotchkiss*** -- "Adjudant" 06. Februar 1915 Rufiji
2 x 7,62-cm-Gebirgskanone (englisch) -- 29. Oktober 1916 Ngominji
1 x 7-cm-Gebirgskanone (belgisch) --** 14. September 1916 Itaga
2 x 7-cm-Gebirgskanone (portugiesisch) -- 01. Dezember 1916, Newala,
1 x 3,7cm Revolverkanone (portugiesisch) -- 10. Dezember 1916 Tschianga
1 x 7,5-cm (britisch) -- 16.Oktober 1917 Njangao
1 x 3,7-cm Kanone (port) -- 01.Dezember 1918 Namapa POA
1 x 4,5-cm port. Leichtgeschütz -- 17.Juni 1918 Mubeya POA
1 x 3" Stokes Mörser -- 22.Juli 1918 Nyamirue POA
13

E-Beutegeschütze oh. nachw. Einsatz
1 x 7-cm-Gebirgskanone (belgisch) gesprengt 14. September 1916 Itaga
2 x 7-cm-Gebirgskanone (portugiesisch) o. Verschl 01. Dezember 1916, Newala,
2 x 7-cm Gebirgskanone (britisch) mussten zurückgel. werden 01. Mai 1918 Koronje POA
2 x 7-cm-Gebirgskanone (portugiesisch) o.Verschl **** 01. Juli 1918, Kokosani POA
7

TOTAL: 82


* geklärt
** Es wurde bei der Evakuierung von Tabora nur ein Geschütz mitgeführt, das zweite wurde gesprengt editiert in Liste

*** Nachweis über Verbleib 3. Geschütz steht noch aus

****genau genommen wurde ein Geschütz mit dem Verschluß der mitgebrachten Kanone weiter genutzt


Verlustliste
(Datum - Typ - Ort)

1914
05.Aug - C/73 -- Dar es Salaam
05.Aug - C/73 -- Dar es Salaam
05.Aug - C/73 -- Dar es Salaam
05.Aug - C/73 -- Dar es Salaam
13.Aug - 4,0-cm -- Shinxhaven „Herrmann“
09.Sept - 3,7-cm SK -- Kaporo
09.Sept - 3.7-cm SK -- Kaporo

1915
06.Mär - 3,7-cm Revolverk -- Speke-Golf „Muansa“
21.Mär - 10,5-cm SK -- Kahe
23.Juni - C/73 -- Bukoba
26.Dez - 3,7-cm Revolverk. Tanganjika „Kingani“

1916
09.Feb - 3,7-cm Revolverk -- Tanganjika „Hedwig“
09.Feb. - 4,7-cm -- Tanganjika „Hedwig“
22.Mär - 6,0-cm -- Latema Nek
16.Mai - C/73 - Njawarongo
18.Mai - 10,5-cm SK -- Kondoa-Irangi
06.Juni - 6,0-cm -- Mombo
06.Juni - 4,7-cm -- Sane-Paß, Langenburg
10.Juni - 3,7-cm SK -- Ukerewe
10.Juni - 3,7-cm SK -- Ukerewe
15.Juni - C/73 -- Gitega
15.Juni - 3,7-cm Revolverk -- Kwediboma b. Pongwe
15.Juni - 3,7-cm Revolverk -- Misungwi/Bukoba
24.Juni - 3,7-cm SK -- Lukigura
26.Juni - 6,5-cm -- Niakassu
03.Juli - 6,0-cm -- Kato
03.Juli - 4,7-cm -- Busirajombe
14.Juli - 10,5-cm SK -- Muansa
15.Juli - 4,7-cm -- Segera-Berg
24.Juli - 10,5-cm Haubitze -- Malangali
28.Juli - 4,0-cm -- Kigoma
28.Juli - 3,7-cm Revolverk -- Kassaba
28.Juli - 3,7-cm Revolverk -- Kassaba
01.Aug - 15-cm RK -- Dar es Salaam
15. Aug - 10,5-cm SK -- Bagamojo
15.Aug - 3,7-cm Revolverk -- Bagamojo
24.Aug - 8,8-cm -- Mlali
30. Aug - 10,5-cm SK -- Morogoro
02.Sept - 10,5-cm SK -- Korogwe
11.Sept - 3,7-cm SK -- Dutumi,
11.Sept - C/73 -- Dutumi
14.Sept - C/73 -- Tabora/Itaga
14.Sept - C/73 -- Tabora/Itaga
18.Sept - 10,5-cm SK -- Tabora
22.Sept - 3,7cm SK -- Tabora/Sikonge
22 Sept - 3,7cm-Revolverk -- Tabora
22.Sept - 7,0-cm (belg) -- Tabora
30.Okt - 6,0-cm -- Mkapira
01.Nov - 7,6-cm -- (brit) Ngominji
07.Nov - 3,7-cm --Revolverk Malangali
17.Nov - 7,6-cm --(brit) Lupembe
26.Nov - 10,5-cm --Haubitze Ilembule

1917
01.Jan - 10,5-cm Haubitze -- Tschimbe
15.Jan - 10,5-cm SK -- Kibata
24.Jan - 8,8-cm SK -- Likuyu
11.Mär - 3,7-cm Revolverk (port) -- Mingojo/Rovuma
01 Apr - 3,7-cm SK -- St. Moritz (Rukwa-See)
29.Juli - C73 -- Narungombe
01.Aug - 7,0-cm (belg) -- Mpopa
09.Aug - 3,7-cm SK -- Ssoissa
09.Aug - 3,7-cm SK -- Ssoissa
15. Aug - 3,7-cm Revolverk -- Mpepo
06.Okt - 7,0-cm (port) -- Mbemkuru
16. Okt - 4,7-cm -- Njangao
16.Okt - C/73 -- Luwegu
27.Okt - 10,5-cm SK -- Mahiwa
28.Okt - 10,5-cm SK -- Massassi
17.Nov - 10,5.cm Haubitze -- Njambindinga
17.Nov - 7,5-cm (brit) -- Njambindinga
18.Nov. - 7,5-cm Erh. -- Kitangari
28.Nov - 6,0-cm -- Rovuma
28.Nov - 3,7-cm SK --Rovuma

1918
01.Mai - 7,5-cm -- POA
22.Mai - 3,7-cm SK (port) -- Makoti
??.Juli - 4,5-cm (port) -- Kokosani
31.Okt - 3” Stokes (brit) -- Fife
25.Nov - 7,0-cm (port) -- Abercorn

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#202

Post by CPT Bob » 18 Apr 2014, 16:27

I am getting old; I need stronger spectacles! Ahhh! I found a note buried in my “Cropped Tabora Postcard” file; it reads “QF 3-pounder, Hotchkiss Gun Model 1898, Calgary, Naval Museum of Alberta”. (I went to the Google; nice photos, beautiful example!)

I became confused after reading several different interpretations of the same basic story; “The Fort Klapperkop 8.8cm gun was carried on the Konigsberg and was intended for use on merchant shipping.”

In one version, “carried = mounted” and “for use on = to fire at”.
In another version, it meant “as Cargo” and “to later mount on a civilian ship, converting it to a Raider”.
I was mistaken and I believe version #1 is correct.

I saw this FOR SALE: “Konigsberg Gun Sight”
http://www.rubylane.com/item/802481-142 ... nge-Finder

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Chris Dale
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#203

Post by Chris Dale » 20 Apr 2014, 16:29

Well spotted Bob!!!!!

Of course the tempting theory would be that it is from the Hove gun, which is only a short hop from Portsmouth. Perhaps it was removed from the gun before scrapping? The gun captured at Bagamoyo certainly had its sighting equipment intact when it was captured- unlike some other guns (eg. Kahe and Mkuyuni).

So is Bagamoyo Nr369?????

Cheers
Chris

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#204

Post by Chris Dale » 20 Apr 2014, 16:34

Oh no, sorry 369 is the Pretoria gun isn't it? So it's not the Bagamoyo/Hove Gun...

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Chris

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#205

Post by Chris Dale » 20 Apr 2014, 18:25

I've added a page on the gun at Jinja with some details and photos not seen before...
http://s400910952.websitehome.co.uk/ger ... njinja.htm

Cheers
Chris

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#206

Post by CPT Bob » 24 Apr 2014, 17:41

I Googled “Goetzen Kanone” and found a nice big photograph I had not seen before. It looks like they are having a party on "Race Day" at the Yacht Club.

http://spudich.wordpress.com/2013/01/08 ... elms-erbe/

I did a little more “Googling” and found a postcard at delcampe.net

http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,18 ... age,E.html
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#207

Post by Einhert » 24 Apr 2014, 18:11

Jinja gun

Spoke to one of the Lt Cols from Jinja. He informs me the gun arrived there in 1962 from Kampala....

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#208

Post by CPT Bob » 25 Apr 2014, 15:54

In early 2010, Chris and I were corresponding with Mr. A.G. Whitwell from Australia. He is a veteran who served with both the Black Watch and the 4th African Rifles in Jinja in the early 1950’s. He remembers the Konigsberg Gun being situated inside the main gate at the Jinja Barracks back then.

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#209

Post by Chris Dale » 27 Apr 2014, 14:43

..yes, from my notes Albert Whitwell recalled the gun at Jinja as of 1956.

Cheers
Chris

PS Great caption Bob!

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#210

Post by Chris Dale » 27 Apr 2014, 18:58

OK, here's a new angle to look at. What colour were the Königsberg guns when used on land? There aren't many clues that I can find as to what colours they were painted on land. Of course the choice of colour would have been limited to whatever paint supplies existed (or could be improvised) in German East Africa at the time.

Pale Grey?
On the ship they were painted pale grey along with the rest of the metalwork on the ship. Some period photos of them on land show them a pale colour- but that's under African sunlight... perhaps some were left in their naval pale grey?

Reddish Brown?
During restoration work on the Pretoria gun they took paint samples and came to the conclusion that it was probably a reddish brown in wartime- which is how it was repainted during the restoration. Now we know that parts of the Pretoria gun are from different Königsberg Guns and that the carriage may be from an entirely different source that makes things more difficult. Perhaps the paint sample was taken from the carriage, in which case it may (or may not) have been part of the gun in wartime.

Green?
Green would seem an obvious colour to paint a gun intended for land warfare particularly in a country with a lot of vegetation. Two of the existing three 10.5cm guns were until recently painted green but I have found no proof of green being used as a colour for the guns in wartime.

Black?
August Hauer, a doctor who served in the Schutztruppe recalled seeing a Koenigsberg gun at Dodoma (probably gun 2 Kondoa-Irangi) in his memoirs- "In a clearing by a hilltop we rested and found "Big Bertha'', as the 10.5cm was nicknamed. Not less than 32 oxen were attached to the Boer wagon on which she lay sprawled black and stiff." (Quotation from P144-146 "Kumbuke, Kriegserlebnisse eines Arztes" by August Hauer, Deutsch-Literarisches Institut J Schneider, Berlin-Tempelhof 1935). Of course, writing 20 years after the event he may have remembered the colour wrong?
There is also the only known colour sketch of a Königsberg gun by an eyewitness, W Rehfeld. He drew lots of accurate sketches of the war in German East Africa. He has drawn the gun quite technically accurately without a flange and with a Dar carriage (meaning it is probably either gun 5 Mkuyuni or 8 Kibata). His only error being that he has twelve spokes whereas most photographs of the Dar cariages and their traction engine wheels show 14. I cannot imagine he could have guessed the guns appearance this accurately without seeing it for real. Rehfeld shows the gun as black too.

Camouflage Pattern?
Some photographs, for example one of the 7Tabora gun in its emplacement at the Elephant's foot in Kigoma show a definite camouflage pattern. The turret side on the right is a pale colour with brush strokes of a darker colour to give a camouflage effect. Of course we don't know what colours this was done with, possibly naval grey with green or brown brush strokes?

A Messy Mixture?
Richard Wenig described the 9Mahiwa gun in 1917 as- "Under a canopy of Miombo trees the gun is rusted, the paint peeled off and missing through the years, an old veteran with bent spokes and some blasted rivets". Some photographs, such as the photo of the Mkyuni Gun after its capture show peeled paint too. The Mkuyuni gun looks like it has had a dark colour (possibly brown or green?) peeling off to reveal a lighter colour (possibly its original naval pale grey).

Has anyone else got any clues or guesses to throw in here? The true answer is almost certainly that different guns were different colours at different times...

Cheers
Chris

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