Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

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Chris Dale
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#241

Post by Chris Dale » 29 Jul 2014, 12:13

Here's where the Bagamoyo Gun used to be on display in Hove, England....
kberghovebw1.jpg
Here's the location on Google Maps...
kberghovemap1.jpg
Here's a satellite image. It's now the car park of the King Alfred Leisure Centre.
kberghove1.jpg
Here's a close up. It seems someone was walking over the very spot where the gun used to be when the photo was taken-
kberghoveclose1.jpg
Cheers
Chris

manowari
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#242

Post by manowari » 10 Aug 2014, 10:08

Good morning, I have been fascinated bythe extent of the research into the KBG guns.. Attached some pix for interest...
The first is the Kbg model 1: 100 extensively rebuilt from an Emden kit with full electronics.. a good copy of the Kahe gun recovered and set up in the grounds of Govt House in Dar es Salaam.
Re the Mombasa Kbg gun, The first a view of both Kbg and Pegasus guns as they are today, a view of the breech, unfortunately the serial no is not visible but as I may be there shortly I will see if I can clean same. The last is the gun in the early 70s outside Fort Jesus prior to moving it to its present position.
Kevin Patience
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1kbg.jpg
KBG 1:100 model
1dar.jpg
Dar es Salaam gun 1930s
m1.jpg
Msa gun
Guns m.jpg
Breech
kmsa.jpg
Msa gun
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Chris Dale
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#243

Post by Chris Dale » 10 Aug 2014, 23:53

Dear Kevin,
A very warm welcome to the forum! :welcome:

Your book "Königsberg- A German East African Raider" has as you've seen here been a great help to us! Thanks also for these new photos...

May I ask a question? What is the source of this photo-
Image

We suspect it may the the gun that blew up at Kondoa-Irangi rather than the Tabora gun as it has no barrel flange which the gun captured at Tabora did have, as seen in photos of it at Kigoma in its turret.

That would be great if you could note the serial numbers on the gun in Mombasa. As you've seen on the forum, the gun should have serial numbers in several places such as the recoil cylinders as well as the breech. It might, like the Pretoria gun, have parts from more than one original gun. It would also be great to see any more close up photos that you have of it?

All the best,
Chris

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danebrog
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#244

Post by danebrog » 14 Aug 2014, 17:24

found another picture of a "homebrew" DAR gun for identification (from NA):
https://images.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ ... SearchItem
8-)

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#245

Post by CPT Bob » 15 Aug 2014, 01:58

I see your crack!
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#246

Post by CPT Bob » 15 Aug 2014, 17:31

I have often wondered why that “piece of junk” on display at Fort Jesus was selected instead of the gun mounted on the DAR carriage. The large crack in the “cradle” is the explanation. Theoretically, it could have been repaired by “swapping parts”, but it was not worth the effort. C’est la vie!
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#247

Post by CPT Bob » 15 Aug 2014, 18:47

Thanks, Oli!
At first I thought I saw “Holes” where the Flange should be, but I was wrong. I then noticed (Around the watermark, thank you very much!) the big crack in the Cradle. There it was, in every photograph! It was similar to having a crack in the engine-block of you automobile; sometime it is not worth repairing. Junk!

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#248

Post by CPT Bob » 16 Aug 2014, 18:30

I think this is the correct story of the Fort Jesus gun, but all the “details” need to be compiled.

Sgt Southern was in the area west of Lindi. Presumably, after the fighting was over, he, along with other Driver/Mechanics, drove out to the destroyed Masasi gun and removed the barrel and the elevation and wheel-locking mechanisms. They towed away the bare frame and wheels.

At another time and place, Sgt Southern salvaged another barrel (with a Flange). Presumably, it also was in the general vicinity of Lindi.

At some point, the “Masasi-frame” had its wheels removed in order for the axles to be greased and one was put one backwards. The “mystery-barrel” was mounted onto the bare frame and “the gun” was shipped to Dar es Salaam, where it was consolidated with other surrendered guns in an empty lot near the train station.

Later, it was shipped to Fort Jesus.

The “Big Question” is, “Where did Sgt Southern have to go in order to salvage the barrel-with-flange?” They were equipped with vehicles that could have been driven virtually anywhere in Tanzania, but realistically, they would have stayed within their own “Operational Area” and not been sent on “a safari to Rhodesia”.
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danebrog
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#249

Post by danebrog » 18 Aug 2014, 15:30

Well spotted (again!), Bob. And your theory about the Mombasa gun sounds logical, too
But where to obtain a flanged barrel? The few surviving guns were as scarce as scattered and Sgt. Southern was surely not able to skim the colony.
But we hold photographic evidence from Southerns album for a barrel. The next available gun closely nearby was Wenigs gun.
I hear the shouting: "But Wenig has stated he blew up the barrel!" Thats right, but the same Wenig stated in the same book, the gun at DAR on display was his "annihilated" gun...
(When forced to pave a way throug hypothetical jungles I always prefer "Ockhams Razor" as principal tool.)

We will see....
Olli

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#250

Post by CPT Bob » 18 Aug 2014, 19:48

Sergeant Southern’s Konigsberg Gun Photos:

Photographs of soldiers posing next to wrecked enemy guns are common and easy to explain. Two of the photographs appear to show Sgt Southern in the act of salvaging parts from two different guns. One photo appears to show an “empty” Krupp carriage (no barrel) and a limber being prepared to be towed away. (We have concluded that it must be the Masasi gun after the damaged parts had been removed.) The other photo shows a barrel & cradle w/flange being pulled down a muddy road. The barrel is inverted; the recoil dampers are on the top-side, slightly canted toward the camera.

I offer this as an explanation:

It always has been a common practice for victorious Commanders to send their soldiers out on work-details soon after the fighting has ended in order to collect Trophies. Sometimes they had to salvage parts from different pieces of enemy equipment because Commanders want Prizes that are complete and undamaged. It also gave the Men something to do; remember, “Idle hands are the devil's workshop”. (It also lowered the Enlisted-men’s odds versus the Officers' in the “nurse-chasing competition”. Ha!)

Sergeant Southern had a barrel and we must deduce where he got it.
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#251

Post by CPT Bob » 19 Aug 2014, 15:59

“One gun went to Kampala”; a Short Story of the Mwanza Gun.

The Mwanza Gun was one of the first of the guns salvaged from the SMS Konigsberg to be made operational and it was not employed anywhere else. An emplacement was prepared and an entire naval pedestal mount was installed. (The ship had ten 10.5cm guns and, of those, four were originally mounted on the ship without the “armored turrets”. The Mwanza Gun is one of those four.) The gun was taken by rail from Dar es Salaam to Mwanza and then hauled to “the top of Kisoria Hill at the entrance to the Bay.” The gun protected the harbor at Mwanza, thereby giving the Germans access to Lake Victoria.

Eventually the British, who were on the north side of the Lake, maneuvered southward around the eastern shore, turned west and threatened the German’s rear at Mwanza, thereby forcing them to withdraw to the south.

In a defensive position, such as the gun-emplacement at Mwanza, the Gun Crew would have surveyed the entire area within the gun’s maximum range and computed the Firing Data for all possible target locations. The SKS L/40 10.5cm gun had a maximum range of 12.2km/7.5miles. Several different German sources reported that the Gun was fired for the last time on the night of 13 July 1916 at the advancing British column and then it was abandoned. It is possible that out-posts could have signaled when they detected enemy movement in the darkness and the men on the gun could turn a few wheels to pre-computed target-data and fired a couple of rounds down-range.

It is also possible that the Germans may not have been shooting at anyone; they may have been “expending their ammunition” by shooting at targets on a list, regardless if the enemy was there or not. Remember, it was very dark & scary being in an “out-post” at night when you knew that the Skin Corps was somewhere out there, everyone else was retreating and you were being left behind. The British would have threatened the Germans only withdrawal-route long before they were within range of the 10.5cm gun.

No major fighting took place when the British forces arrived to occupy the town. It was widely reported to be quite the opposite; at the end of the day, when the British NCO’s counted the Askaris’ ammunition, they found that only 400 rounds had been fired.

Lieutenant G. C. Hill (Wiltshire Regiment), 2/4 King’s African Rifles is credited with taking the well-known photograph of the Mwanza Gun after its capture. The box-like shield seen rigged to the gun in the photo was locally manufactured and was likely for camouflage; it was not attached to the gun when the gun was mounted on the SMS Konigsberg.

I do not know the span of time between the Germans' departure and Lt. Hill’s arrival. The partially disassembled state of the gun in the photograph is very odd. There was no obvious reason for the Germans to have done it before they left. If the British were disassembling the gun prior to its shipment to Uganda, you would expect to see men with hoists & ropes and you would surely see some kind of “Organization”. Instead, all you see is a disorderly pile of junk that looks as if someone was trying to take the gun apart in a hurry. (Those “damper sleeves” are solid brass!) Additionally, the Germans fired many shells through the gun the night that they abandoned it and yet I do not see a single brass shell-casing lying around. Did the “orderly-Germans” pick them up before they left? I contend that the local “scrap-metal collectors” were on that gun like Vultures as soon as the German troops left town and were chased away be the approaching Ugandan troops.

The gun was likely taken by steamer from Mwanza to Port Bell and then by rail to Kampala. The method and date of the move are unknown. The posts & rope that encircle the gun in the “Kampala” photos indicate an early “traffic circle”. The area around the gun appears to be almost park-like. Does anyone have a Kampala map from the 1930’s with a “Place Du Canon” marked on it? Ha!

A unit of the KAR had been stationed at Bombo , about 30 miles north of Kampala, since prior to WW1. In 1936 the KAR was reorganized and authorization was given to begin construction on new barracks at Jinja. The project was not completed before the outbreak of WW2 and the KAR did not fully occupy the barracks until they redeployed home to Uganda at the end of the war. The gun was moved to Jinja sometime between the late-1930s and the late-1940s. There are several confirmed reports of it being in Jinja in the early 1950s. It has been located just inside the main gate of the barracks at Jinja since it was moved from Kampala.

The source of the damage from bullets is still unknown. My guess is that the KAR shot it during their “attack” at Mwanza. (I wonder how many of the “400 rounds” were fired at it.)

I am very grateful for help from Brigadier (Retired) Antony Edward Kent Karslake. He was “seconded” to 4-KAR from the King's Royal Rifle Corps from 1957 to 1960. He gained the rank of Brigadier in the service of the Royal Green Jackets. The KRRC became the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Green Jackets in 1966 when the British Army reorganized.

A 13cm German gun that was captured on the Western Front was, and still is, displayed in Entebbe as a war memorial. There was a period of time when the 10.5cm gun was in Kampala and the 13cm gun was in Entebbe. After the 10.5cm gun was moved to Jinja, local people slowly began to attribute stories about it to the 13cm gun and is why tourists reported seeing the Konigsberg gun in Entebbe.
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Chris Dale
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#252

Post by Chris Dale » 19 Aug 2014, 22:59

I absolutely concur with you Bob on Sgt Southern's guns being Mahiwa and Masasi compiled and therefore the gun currently in Mombasa. In the original posting of Sgt Southern's photos (http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forum ... pic=191808) the captions show where they were all taken- around Masasi and Lindi. These were the only two guns in the area. The gun photos are captioned as being taken "outside (Helada or Holatada?)" and "outside Mtama". I can't find Helada on google maps, though the spelling may have changed since but Mtama is very near Mahiwa...

I think, Olli is right too about Wenig identifying his gun as the one in the Captured G Guns photo from Dar, and as the wheel is on the wrong way around, that's the Mombasa gun too.

On the actual split of parts, I would say probably only the left wheel on Masasi was used as it is the only part that looks intact to me- and co-incidentally the only part put on wrongly at Mombasa... the basic carriage of Masasi is not in Mombasa, I don't think because the Masasi one has the strange twisting handle under the front where as Mombasa does not, although as you say Bob it may have been removed.

I'll read your Mwanza study now Bob.

Cheers
Chris

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#253

Post by CPT Bob » 21 Aug 2014, 12:46

I was awake about 03:45hrs and the coffee pot is already empty! I found this just now:
“Object description: German East African Campaign. One of the Konigsberg's guns blown up by the Germans, when forced to evacuate it at Masassi in November 1917. Note Sgt. Major in foreground holding the muzzle.”

Catalogue number : Q 15511 / DALE C (LT) COLLECTION

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205250374

I used to be the man who woke the Bugler.

Bob
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#254

Post by CPT Bob » 31 Aug 2014, 18:17

“Tropical” weather moved in last night; good for the garden, but not-so-much for “old-soldier aches”. C’est la vie! It is an opportunity to do this.

I believe we all agree that this is most-likely the “Kibata Gun”. I noticed two things; a crack in the Cradle and the brass sighting-mechanism all askew. An explosion surely caused the crack and it would have sent the sights flying. The brass sight-tube from the right side appears to be lying on the left side of the gun. The curved calibrated device that held the sight-tube is stuck in the left-side mounting slot backwards and it is still holding part of the other sight-tube.
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#255

Post by Chris Dale » 31 Aug 2014, 19:34

I wonder if the slighting arm being captured but being loose shows that it might well be the arm in the South African National Museum of Military History in Johannesburg. In which case Kibata was gun 368...

If so, I'd say that the rest of the gun was left there as 368 is not one of the serial numbers on the Pretoria gun made from salvaged guns...

Cheers
Chris

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