Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

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CPT Bob
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#511

Post by CPT Bob » 10 Apr 2016, 17:21

22. March 1916 and shelled the Position Nyamjani with 50 pieces by 15-cm shells whereby this position was almost destroyed. The gun themselves wasn´t effected. Three days later, on the 25. March 1916 the Gun could set up at the new Position X. It seem to be that there was a second position built for this gun, but Hermann J. Müller didn´t mentioned where. This new position must be the location of this “10.Massasi-Gun” up to the 7. July 1916,
(Page 34)
The SS Marie lands in March 1916 with four Krupp carriages. These carriages are given to the next guns from Tanga and Dar to be moved.
2 Kondoa Irangi is at Dar until April 1916 when the first Krupp's become available. Gets a Krupp Carriage. May 1916 blows barrel sent back to Dar barrel not repairable (possibly damaged carriage) leaving spare wheels.

June 1916, Gun 10 Massassi leaves Tanga gets a Krupp.
(Page 1)


Is it possible for the barrel to have been removed from the emplacement on 22 March 1916 and mounted directly onto a Krupp carriage? If so, within three days it easily could have been operational and re-positioned anywhere in the vicinity of Tanga until it was strategically withdrawn circa June 1916.

If a disassembled Krupp carriage (strapped to a pallet) arrived at the Tanga bahnhof, I would require about one hour, several men and several big tools in order to have the chassis rolling down the road toward the gun's location.

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Tanzania
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#512

Post by Tanzania » 10 Apr 2016, 18:41

.
Is it possible for the barrel to have been removed from the emplacement on 22 March 1916 and mounted directly onto a Krupp carriage? If so, within three days it easily could have been operational and re-positioned anywhere in the vicinity of Tanga until it was strategically withdrawn circa June 1916.

If a disassembled Krupp carriage (strapped to a pallet) arrived at the Tanga bahnhof, I would require about one hour, several men and several big tools in order to have the chassis rolling down the road toward the gun's location.
Several sources mentioned very clearly the very difficult transport of exactly this gun from Tanga to Daressalam with a team of oxen and a slide!
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The “Putini-Gun“ = (1. Kahe-Gun) in Tanga



If we come now to the second Koenigsberg-Gun in Tanga we have also (minimum) two positions available. I assume the
search on site for these locations will be probable more difficult than in the south of Tanga because of the mangroves-
and swamp area. As mentioned before, this Gun was present in Tanga from end of October 1915 up to 10. March 1916.

Hermann J. Müller mentioned in his memories that both Positions are connected by a 6 km long rail section. He stated also,
that Position I is at “Putini village” in the `Tanga-Bay´ and Position III at “Mtimbwani village” in the `Mansa-Bay´ / Manza



With these statements two general questions arise:

I.) When Müller mentioned a Position I and a Position III; – where is Position II?
Option A: Position II is between I and III, but the location wasn´t mentioned and still unknown.
Option B: Position II meant the second `Tanga-Gun´ at Position Nyamjani (10.Massassi-Gun)
Option C: Position II never existed and was maybe only planned.

II.) Müller and Schoenfeld explained that Position III (“Mtimbwani village”) is in the Mansa-Bay / Manza
(The same Bay where the blockade runner SMH `Rubens´ arrived half a year before, on 14. April 1915.)



The author of the German-Wikipedia-page for: Mansabucht (Manza-Bay) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansabucht
mentioned as source also a link about this bay and from a military point of view interesting historical search on site.
ROYAL NAVY HARBOUR DEFENCES - MANZA BAY, TANZANIA: http://indicatorloops.com/manza.htm
But unfortunately without references of further relicts form the time period 1915/16. (But he were contacted and asked.)



This Google-map shows from North to South, Manza-Bay, Kwale-Bay and Tanga-Bay.

Image

If the Position I at Putini village was in the `Tanga-Bay´, the distance to Position III at Mtimbwani village in `Mansa-Bay´with 6 km cannot be true.

.
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984


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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#513

Post by Tanzania » 13 Apr 2016, 08:46

.

Before we continue with the fixed installation of the Koenigsberg-Guns in Tanga and also Daressalam, let me ask a question.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________


German TV documentation about GEA with film sequences of the salvage and transport of Koenigsberg-Gun parts.


Divers on board the support vessel `Hedwig´ (?) before the start searching for Gun-parts under water.
(Captain Gustav Zimmer ordered to throw the gun-closures overboard when the ship was blown up.)

Image



Removal of the Koenigsberg-Gun shields on land.

Image



Any idea which film it was? (I took the photos by camera in October 2007 and can´t remember about the title of the fim.)

Cheers Holger Kotthaus

.
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#514

Post by Tanzania » 28 Apr 2016, 02:58

.

(Regarding the Tanga-Gun Positions I still wait for replies and new informations)


Here is a timidly attempt of an unknown (?) artist to draw a Koenigsberg Gun.

Image

Source: Unknown Blog which is not longer online

.
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#515

Post by CPT Bob » 01 May 2016, 17:35

(I forgot there was no direct railway connection between Tanga and DAR.) Regarding Tanga, is this the scenario?

The primary gun emplacement at Tanga was an elaborate construction project; it used steel beams and it included a Fire Control bunker below the gun deck (?).

It is reasonable to assume that a simpler design was used for an “Alternate” gun emplacement; similar to the circular pits with large bolts imbedded in thick Cement (DAR & Kigoma Hill). (***The Line-Drawing is only an “example”***)

The Royal Navy knew the gun’s location at Tanga after the “duel” on 22 March 1916 and they would surely return. Therefore, the gun was repositioned and it was Operational within three days. (The Log-Book of the HMS Vengeance would surely give the German gun’s exact coordinates.)

June 1916 the barrel was dismounted from the “Alternate” emplacement and hauled overland to Dar es Salaam, where it was mounted onto a Krupp carriage.

The barrel was destroyed at Masasi, but the carriage may be at Fort Jesus.

(How was the gun at Mahiwa disabled prior to being abandoned? Did that Barrel survive? )


The unknown artist must be commended; here are excellent detailed line drawings of parts of both DAR and Krupp carriages. Although incomplete, portions of the Elevation Mechanism & Wheel Brake-Lock are from the Krupp carriages and are correct. The Spoke Wheels and rivets from the DAR carriages are very nice.
tanga 1234.JPG
WNGER_88mm-45_skc13_land_sketch_pic.jpg

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#516

Post by Chris Dale » 09 May 2016, 13:18

Sorry, to change the subject slightly...
The SMS Königsberg also had a 6cm Bootslandungskanone on board. As far as I know this gun was handed over to the Schutztruppe in August 1914. Some sources I've seen date the handing over as 5 August 1914, yet the Königsberg was I believe at sea on this date?
I see from Holger's notes that the Schutztruppe lost a few 6cm guns at different times and places.
22.Mär 1916 - 6,0-cm -- Latema Nek
06.Juni 1916 - 6,0-cm -- Mombo
03.Juli 1916 - 6,0-cm -- Kato
30.Okt 1916 - 6,0-cm -- Mkapira
28.Nov 1917 - 6,0-cm -- Rovuma
The others would have been two 6cm Colonial guns that the Schutztruppe had prior to the outbreak of war and the other two 6cm landing guns from the SS Rubens. Which is the Königsberg's gun?
Does anyone have more information on this Königsberg 6cm gun?
Cheers
Chris

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#517

Post by CPT Bob » 10 May 2016, 16:19

“Bootslandungskanone”: Is that a “non-specific” German Navy description of any small-caliber field gun that was carried by a large ship for the sole purpose of accompanying a Landing Party? Was the 6cm “Boat Landing Cannon” from the SMS Königsberg actually a 6cm Krupp Mountain Gun? Is there a difference?

I searched Google Images for “6cm Krupp” and found excellent detailed photos of “Fred the Cannon”.

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/blackpowde ... he-cannon/

“Fred the Cannon” has a Krupp Data Plate on his carriage. The Jinga Gun has a Krupp Data Plate on its pedestal mount.

Where is/was the Krupp Data Plate on the Fort Jesus carriage?
Krupp6CM1893020.jpg
Krupp6CM1893020.jpg (32.11 KiB) Viewed 1267 times
Krupp6CM1893009.jpg
Krupp6CM1893009.jpg (41.25 KiB) Viewed 1267 times
data plate.JPG
data plate.JPG (38.64 KiB) Viewed 1267 times

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Chris Dale
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#518

Post by Chris Dale » 10 May 2016, 22:36

On another random Google search I found Loof's book- Tufani Sturm über Deutsch-Ostafrika. Vizeadmiral a.D. Max Looff.

The illustration on the cover is interesting. I wonder how closely it is based on a photograph? The shape of the gun carriage looks similar to that of the Pretoria gun...


Cheers
Chris
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Chris Dale
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#519

Post by Chris Dale » 10 May 2016, 22:43

Image

Loooks similar to the 6cm gun you found Bob...

Cheers
Chris

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#520

Post by CPT Bob » 11 May 2016, 13:17

I think "Banksy" produced all three original paintings. Ha!
groBegewehr.jpg
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#521

Post by Chris Dale » 11 May 2016, 13:30

It was Walter Rehfeldt who did the colour ones. He also served in the campaign. There's an album of his pictures here-
http://www.reichskolonialamt.de/inhalt/ ... hfeldt.htm

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Chris

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#522

Post by CPT Bob » 17 May 2016, 20:38

6cm / 60mm Krupp Mountain Gun

Model 1870 has the breech "handle" on the right side.

Rehfeldt's paintings show the handle is on the Right. I like the detailed armored-plate. (The Loader is always on the opposite side of the handle.)

Several guns (dated 1893) show the handle is on the Left side. Were the two pre-war guns and the three guns delivered during the war all the same Model / Date?
0Bw6cm_Gb.jpg
0Bw6cm_Gb.jpg (76.47 KiB) Viewed 1201 times
6cm krupp.JPG
H0019-L70023136.jpg
H4128-L89687719.jpg
pom-pom shield.JPG

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#523

Post by CPT Bob » 17 May 2016, 20:39

German sailors at Bagamoyo with gun.JPG
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#524

Post by Chris Dale » 17 May 2016, 22:39

Image

Haha.. you may be right there!

Good work on finding more pics and spotting the left right problem... hmmmm....

Cheers
Chris

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#525

Post by Chris Dale » 18 May 2016, 13:10

Does this look like a 6cm to you guys?
6cmgun7101_3162_0992_0051a.jpg
http://www.ub.bildarchiv-dkg.uni-frankf ... etz250voll

Cheers
Chris

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