Jewish partisans

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szopen
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Jewish partisans

#1

Post by szopen » 07 Aug 2006, 18:53

I was discussing with someone on wikipedia onthe topic of Bielski's and Zorin, so I typed in the some quotes from Boradyn's book. Note, that because of the topic of discussion, the quotes are about Jewish partisans - but their actions were not _that_ different from actions of other Soviet partisans in the area of Novogrodek.

Zygmunt Boradyn: Niemen, rzeka niezgody: Polsko-sowiecka wojna partyzancka na Nowogrodczyznie 1943-1944 (Niemen, the river of disagreement/conflict: Polish-Soviet partisan war on Nowogrodek region 1943-1944) Warszawa 1999, 1st edition.
Page 84-86
The most brutal requisitions were done by Jewish units and groups. In the Baranowickie group there were two so called "siemiejne" Jewish units: of Bielski (named in the honour of Kalinin, named of Ordzonikidze) and Zorin (nr 106). In the end of June 1944 the first one fo them had 941 people, from which 162 were armed, and the second 562 (73 armed). Those units were created by Jews hiding in forest and escapees from ghettos in Minsk, Nowogrodek, Iwie and other towns and townlets. There were also numerous groups of Jews in the forest of Nacka, Lipiczanska and Bytenski woods. Those units were not included in soviet group, that why in the archives there are no documents about their activities. It was those units which were most impacting the population, since their main tasks were "economical operations"

In the raport from military operations since beginning of German occupation to the 12th 11.1943 Bielski reported that his unit killed 14 Germans, 17 policemen, 33 German spies and provocateurs, burned 5 wooden bridges, blown up 1 rail bridge, destroyed 8 state estates and one (tartak: place where wood is cut.. forgot the name.) About the requisitions there is no mentioning in the raport. And in reality in the beginning of the december this year partisans of Bielski amassed 200 tons of potatoes, 3 tons of cabbage, 5 ton of (buraki: red large vegatables), 5 tons of grain, 3 tons of meat and 1 ton of kielbasa.

Also unit of Zorin was not suffering the hunger. Ex chief of HQ of this unit (AD: Anatol Werthejm, "Jewish partisans on Belarus", "Zeszyty Historyczne", Paryz 1986, z.86 page 144) wrote: ".. The food was in the abundance, we have even gathered the surplus. In the day of joining with the Red Army we took from the lake sunked few hundred of bags with wheat (...) The food surplus was even sent to Moscow. Once a week a plane landed in field air landing in the forest- it brought newspapers, propaganda materials and took back the alcohol, (slonina) and kielbasa which we were making in the camp (...)". In Jewish camps there were manufactures for making weapons, boots, clothes, mills, bakeries, hospitals, which were working for neighbouring soviet brigades.

The commanders of mentioned units received from their work material gains. Bielski was getting rich at the cost of his compatriots, from whom he took the money on the pretext of buying the weapons. In this case Stiepan Szupienia wrote the letter to gen. "Platon": ".. Bielski is not concerned with military actions, he was speculating in units. He was taking the gold from his partisans for buying the weapons and then he was keeping it for himself, while he had not giving any weapons. I would sugest to propose Bielski to giving the gold to the state (he has few kilos of tsarist golden coins) and then arrest this Bielski and put on trial...".

The greedy nature of Bielski is underlined in his memories Jozef Marchwinski (AD: Polish communist which was temporarily in the camp): "... Bielski loved the money and good life more from his compatriots, whom he govern in the camp. Lusting for power, and even more for money, he was robbing his compatrios without any scrupples for all small savings they have when coming to the camp ... this money were getting to the private pocket of Tewje Bielski and his company... " From the words of Anatol Werthejm describing the "breakfasts" and "weddings" of commander it seems that Zorin also lived quite well (AD: weddings according to the once read interview in newspaper were the raids to neighbouring villages, were ZOrin picked up the prettiest girl, "married" her and lived with her for few days before returning to the camp).

The behaviour of Jewish groups in the terrain was creating the dislike not only from local population, but also amongst other soviet partisans. Cpt Kowalow, sent from Moscow, in June 1944 reported to Czernyszow: "...Population does not like the Jews. When Jewish group passes the Niemen there were accidents of disarming them by our partisans, who were giving the taken weapons to the peasants and they are beating the Jews screaming >>Beat the Jews - save the Russia!<<"

Describing the attitude of commanders of soviets partisans from southern part of Nowogrodek region to the Jews, author of the "Partisans. General overview" writes, that in some units they are accepting Jews, while in other they are expelling them or even shooting.

After capturing again Icek Rubiezewski from unit of Bielski after robbery, commander of Frunze brigade, (some soviet military rank: st. lejt.) Kluczko wrote a letter to Tewje, threating him with shooting in place bandits and robbers if they will appear again on the territory controlled by his unit. Sometimes there were even armed conflics. When June the 1st 1943 accidentaly partisan from diversion group from Zukow brigade was killed by Jew from unit "for soviet Belarus" from Nalibocka forest, in revenge there was raid to Jewish camp, during which it was burned and 7 people were killed.

The commanders of Baranowicka group many times tried to regulate the methods of providing the foods to their units. Regions of supplies were appointed to brigaes and units. In case of proper attitued to local population gen. "Platon" 20 June 1943 issued an order, and March 6th 1944 order of (pplk of national security?) "Donskoj", in which there were warnings of most severe punishments for robberies, rapes and drinking. It seems however that this was carried on only on paper. The behaviour of soviet partisans had not changed. But the situation of inhabitants of Nowogrodek region was steadily worsening The number of Soviet partisans, the amount and the method of taken food threatened the biological existence of the peasants liiving in territories controlled by Soviet units. Local peasants had to working the miracles, so for example in winter 1944 hide the pork from the robbing partisans. Helena Kapciuk living in village of Olchowka (county of Lida) brings back the memories of hwo she was hiding the pork behind the wood. To not allow the animal to be summoned by Soviet partisans, the hand-made stoppers were put into the ears of the pork. (The author continues with the examples of the robberies and rapes of soviet partisans)
Page 89 (Naliboki massacre is mentioned twice in the book. This is first mention, second, more detailed is given later..)
one must be warned that statistics given by gen. Platon (AD: about the numbers of killed Germans - supposedlu 70.000 Germans were killed by soviet partisans in his region) must be treated with care. The example may be Soviet action in Naliboki. The destruction of local "samoochowa" (AD: Belarusian word for self-defense units?) armed with 26 rifles and two automatic rigles, joined with murdering of 128 civilians, was presented by commande of Iwienieckie group like a great military operation, in which 250 "samoochowcy" were killed, four heavy machine guns and 13 automatic rifles, 4 grenade rifles 260 rifles and 20.000 of ammo. In the memories of Czernyszew the garrison of "Samoochowa" counted already 500 people, and amongst the spoilts he enumerats 8 heavy machine guns, 6 smaller artilery pieces, 23 automatic rifles, 40 automatic hand pistols and 100 rifles.

Page 223: (AD: author gives one of examples of local negotiations between AK and soviets)
As it is reported by ex-commander of the "druzyna" (AD: no idea how to translate it. I think it is the smallest part or one of the smallest parts of a military unit either below or just above the platoon level.) from this unit (AD:5th batallion of 77 pp of AK) Ryszard Kiersnowski, soviet units which were garrisoned there (AD:in Rudnicka forest) were organising raids for robbing the north-western part of the county Lida, which was controlled by batallion of cpt. Stanislaw Truszkowski "Sztremer". During those raids they robbed and burned villages of Koniuchy and Niewoniance, murdering part of their inhabitants. As a revenge Poles (AD: AK soldiers) have organised the raid to the forest and burned the settlement of Wisincza. (AD: later author discusses the agreement according to which Poles were giving the food for 2500 soviet and Jewish partisans in exchange for stopping the robberies and giving some ammo and weapons)
Page 58:
First partisan groups appeared in summer and autumn 1941. One of the first partisan units, which were acting on the territory of Nowogrodzkie voivodship during German occupation, was Jewish unit of Tewje Bielski. Bielski reported, that in July 1941 already, he together with his family members and collegues organised the 20-people strong group, with which he went to forests near Nowogrodek.
Page 60:
Small units of "okruzhency" and "wostoczniki" (..) thought rather about the survival than about militaru actions. It is clearly stated in quoted already history of brigade of Lenin Komsomol: In the period from November 1941 to November 1942 all groups basing in forests were not carrying any military or diversion activity". Similarly the situation was also in the unit of Bielski.
Page 72:
Unfortunately we have no full informations about the nationality of the members of Baranowickie group. Only the mentioned data from May the 15th 1944, according to which there were 11185 partisans, from which 6732 were Belarussians, 2552 Russians, 988 Jews, 556 Ukrainians, 150 Poles, 217 others. Belarussian historian Jaugien Siamaszka stated, that in whole group of gen. "Platon" there were 500 POles. There were just 2% of soviet partisans acting in Nowogrodek region. (AD: in the region Poles were from 40 to 50% of population; and majority of Belarussians in Soviet units came from eastern Belarussia, not from local population)
Page 100: (AD: earlier author gives numerous example of murdering AK members and their whole families, as well as common Polish civilians by Soviet units)
The greatest tragedy in Nowogrodek region was May the 9th 1943 in Naliboki, when partisans from Brigade of Stalin and from unit of Bielski, under the pretext of liquidation of local self-defense forcefully created by Germans, murdered 128 person, mainly men. It must be stressed that Soviets were perfectly oriented that large part of so called self-defense was part of Polish conspiration and was preparing to leaving with gun in hand into the forest. From the discussion, which Waclaw Nowicki carried with one of commanders of Naliboki "samochowa", Eugeniusz Klimowski, it seems that in half of April 1943 there were negotations between that self-defense unit and Soviet partisans. Soviets proposed the posored destruction of the self-defense, and then, after taking the oath, incorporation of its members into partisan soviet units (AD: common way to protect the families of partisans. Sometimes for example the volunteers were beaten in front of whole village to create impression they were no volunteers, but forcefully drafted, so Germans or Soviets would not execute their families). Poles accepted first condition, proposing carrying the action May the 3rd, But they refused taking the oath and starting the open fight with Germans. So massacre in Naliboki may be treated as activity of Soviet partisans openly directed at destruction of local AK conspiration. (Later description as Polish AK finally organised units and started to kill or disarm Soviet robbing bands)
Page 152
In October-November 1943 actions of AK were more often, because more often were "economical actions" of Soviet partisans, which were nothing more short of robbery. In those actions especially were active the Jewish units of Bielski and Zorin. Poles were disarming the robbing groups and giving them to Soviet HQs. But this, just as giving the informations about the incidents of robbing the population, was bringing no effects. (...)
Page 166 (AD: Mentioning, that some of Polish AK soldiers from destructed group of Milaszewski were forced to join Bielski unit.)

Page 206-210 (AD: AK was not innocent either. Boradyn gives examples of Polish revenge actions, which also included sometimes killing the civilians. The example of exxageration of Soviet reports:)
"White Polish bands" burned villages of Turejsk and Zaborze. According to the (soviet) report, AK burned 350 houses, killing many civilians. From Polish statistical data it seems, that those villages had no more than 30 houses each. It's hard to believe they grown tenfold during 20 years. And from March the 15th order of "Krasnogwardiejski" unit it seems that 100 "White Poles" hide on roofs of houses of village of Turejsk - the same, which was burned 3 weeks earlier, according to report of Szupienia - shooting to Soviet partisans returning from economical operations. (AD: other example: village Lukasze) According to Soviet intelligence, Poles burned 7 houses and shot 25 people. According to Polish data, that indeed April the 3rd Polish units (squadron of cavalry, squadron of heavy machine guns and 2nd company of infantry from Stolpeckie group of AK) were in Lukasze. In one of the houses uhlan Jan Czujko was killed. In revenge, 6 people tied to Soviet partisans were shot, and "kolchoz was burnt".

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tom_deba
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#2

Post by tom_deba » 09 Aug 2006, 17:17

Bielski partisans behaved like a bandits generally!


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#3

Post by pitman » 10 Aug 2006, 18:02

The literature on the Bielski partisans (on whom several books have been written) does not seem to back that up.

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#4

Post by szopen » 14 Aug 2006, 12:51

pitman wrote:The literature on the Bielski partisans (on whom several books have been written) does not seem to back that up.
I beg to differ.

First, Bielski were Soviet partisans. While behaviour of Soviet partisans was well known in Polish emigre- historic literature, officially no one could investigate the crimes of Soviets. That's why only after 1990 any serious historian could start to investigate the issues. I bought two more recent books on partisans in Nowogrodzkie and both are very consistent in presenting Soviet partisans' (including the notorious Bielski's and Zorin) crimes.

In the meantime, the "literature" in the west ignored all Polish accounts and was based only on memories of former Soviet partisans and Soviet propaganda. It's not surprising that killing 128 people in Naliboki was presented as great success with destruction of 500 "bandits", and that they are not mentioning "the weddings" of Zorin, or "economical operations". Similarly with wiping off KOniuchy and other Polish villages.

In other words, all English literature on Bielski's is probably thrash.

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#5

Post by pitman » 15 Aug 2006, 23:37

I seriously doubt that assertion. I would trust works from outside the region far more than I would trust any work on this subject from within the region. Why? Primarily because Poles, Ukrainians, and Byelorussians/Russians have spent the past 60+ years doing nothing but collecting grievances on the issue of partisans. "You committed this genocide!" "Well, you massacred first!" Just look at the endless bickering in this forum on these subjects. Much of the literature that has come out of Eastern Europe on the subject of partisans has been nationalistic rationalization and justification, whether it is writers from countries formerly part of the Soviet Union trying to justify (or obscure) the rather nasty associations of many of their anti-Soviet partisans with the Nazis, or writers from Poland trying to lay blame at the feet of Ukrainians and/or Soviets, and vice versa. I don't think there is much mature and objective consideration going on in this region these days; it is all heat.

I said that was "primarily." Secondarily I find such accounts, in their treatments of Jewish partisans, rather suspect, because I think there is to some degree an agenda of excusing or minimizing anti-Semitism by trying to cast the Jewish partisans in an unwholesome light.

So, as a generalization, I would be more apt to trust works written by someone from outside the region.

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#6

Post by timotheus » 16 Aug 2006, 07:17

Let me butt in.

"I would trust works from outside the region far more than I would trust any work on this subject from within the region."

That is a very iffy proposition me thinks. I am so sure an american, who doesnt speak any of the local languages, has no idea of local culture or customs, I am sure that person's word and reporting on events is MUCH more valuable than ACTUAL EYE WITNESSES.

Anyways, with one must recognize the fact that in the USA, any media will be overwhelmingly pro Israel and pro Jewish anything (partisans, grandmas, comic books, anything...). So if there are discrepancies between what an eye witness says happened, and a jewish partisan accused of some wrong doing, 100% of the time an american author will only quote the jewish partisan.

Now, here's my view.

Bielski brothers joined Soviet partisans who operated in Poland. Now, keep in mind that the Soviet troops invaded Poland in 1939 and were considered enemies by the local population and the AK polish partisan units.

To feed the jews hiding in the forests, soviet and jewish partisans appropriated, or stole, or confiscated, food from polish farmers. On the one hand, that did not make them popular with the local polish farmers, on the other, jews hiding in the forests would otherwise starve.

The poles and belorussians farmers created self defense forces to defend themselves and their possessions. In retaliation, the unit that the Bielski brothers were part of attacked a local village, and then killed 128 men, women and children.

Just another view.

Please do not let this thread degenerate into people calling others anti semites iof they disagree with the facts, or be spun by holocaust denial folks as "jews are bad".

Partisan warfare, on the eastern front especially, was brutal. Soviets had 2 main goals:
1) To hurt the Germans
2) To make the local population subservient to communist government in Moscow

The soviet, and jews who supported them, took president Bush's "if you are not with us, you are against us" literally, not recognizing that many peasants in the region simply wanted to be left alone by all sides, like most civilians in any war.

For an interesting reading in english, please see:

http://www.naszawitryna.pl/jedwabne_en_127.html

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#7

Post by szopen » 16 Aug 2006, 15:20

pitman wrote:I seriously doubt that assertion. I would trust works from outside the region far more than I would trust any work on this subject from within the region.
Pitman,
The works from outside the region are always based on works from people from inside the region. Doesn't that thought ever came through your mind? Every "reliable" book you read was in turn based on relation and books of someone who call unreliable. In fact, most of them will be based on most unreliable sources: memories of soviet partisans, and soviet propaganda. Yet you are trying to say that they are more reliable than researched works from say Poland?

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#8

Post by szopen » 16 Aug 2006, 15:25

timotheus wrote: To feed the jews hiding in the forests, soviet and jewish partisans appropriated, or stole, or confiscated, food from polish farmers. On the one hand, that did not make them popular with the local polish farmers, on the other, jews hiding in the forests would otherwise starve.
Yes. One must stress that Jewish partisans had virtually no choice: Polish AK partisan units were (usually, there were exceptions) not accepting local Jews - only Jews from central Poland (usually) were accepted.
The poles and belorussians farmers created self defense forces to defend themselves and their possessions. In retaliation, the unit that the Bielski brothers were part of attacked a local village, and then killed 128 men, women and children.
I think vast majority of killed in Naliboki were males - in Koniuchy that was different.
Please do not let this thread degenerate into people calling others anti semites iof they disagree with the facts, or be spun by holocaust denial folks as "jews are bad".
Or "Polish sources are bad" while "English sources which are almost solely based on Soviet sources are good"


szopen
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Also, remember that Soviet partisans in Kresy actively fought with AK. They had direct orders to destroy AK units.

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#9

Post by pitman » 16 Aug 2006, 17:43

I originally wrote:
"I would trust works from outside the region far more than I would trust any work on this subject from within the region."
timotheus wrote:That is a very iffy proposition me thinks. I am so sure an american, who doesnt speak any of the local languages, has no idea of local culture or customs, I am sure that person's word and reporting on events is MUCH more valuable than ACTUAL EYE WITNESSES.
I'm sorry, but why on earth would you assume that an American (or French or British, etc.) historian would not be able to speak the local languages? Speaking as someone with a Ph.D. in history from a major American university, I can assure you that specialists in Japanese history know Japanese, specialists in Ancient Rome know Latin, and so on and so forth.

And historians do not ignore eyewitness accounts, as you for some reason try to suggest in your above statement. They pay close attention to them. But they don't accept them uncritically.

Anyways, with one must recognize the fact that in the USA, any media will be overwhelmingly pro Israel and pro Jewish anything (partisans, grandmas, comic books, anything...). So if there are discrepancies between what an eye witness says happened, and a jewish partisan accused of some wrong doing, 100% of the time an american author will only quote the jewish partisan.
All historians in the United States have a pro-Israel and pro-Jewish bias? What a remarkable (and inaccurate) assertion. Of course, even leaving that aside, I did not even specify "American" historian in my original remark. What I said was that I would be more likely to trust as reliable a work that came from outside the region (whether that "outside" is the U.S., Canada, Great Britain, France, etc.). The reason is that too much history inside the reason is far too nationalistic and far too involved with grievance collection and blame; as a result, objectivity suffers.

Take, for example, the book by Timothy Snyder, "Sketches from a Secret War: A Polish Artist's Mission to Liberate Soviet Ukraine," a very nuanced and interesting look at Henryk Józewski, the director of Polish intelligence in Ukraine and governor of the region of Volhynia in the interwar period. It is difficult for me to imagine very many Polish or Ukrainian writers who could write in such a balanced fashion a study that touches on the sensitive issues of Polish-Ukrainian and Polish-Soviet relations that this book, published by Yale University Press, does. It would be far more likely that a Polish writer would use the subject as an attempt to discredit Ukrainians, and vice versa.

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#10

Post by pitman » 16 Aug 2006, 17:45

szopen wrote: Pitman,
The works from outside the region are always based on works from people from inside the region. Doesn't that thought ever came through your mind? Every "reliable" book you read was in turn based on relation and books of someone who call unreliable. In fact, most of them will be based on most unreliable sources: memories of soviet partisans, and soviet propaganda. Yet you are trying to say that they are more reliable than researched works from say Poland?
Why would you say that works from outside the region are always based on works from inside the region? A good historian will do original research.

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#11

Post by pitman » 16 Aug 2006, 18:46

szopen wrote:Or "Polish sources are bad" while "English sources which are almost solely based on Soviet sources are good"
You are conflating two different versions of the word "source."

In one sense, "source" can mean anything from which one can get information, even a book published by someone else. In another sense, a "source" is original information, such as a contemporary document.

Those are wildly different things. All historians should look at all relevant sources (in the second sense of the word)--Polish, Soviet, Jewish, Ukrainian, whatever. Of course, they should not accept any of those sources uncritically.

What I am saying is that, as a generalization, I trust Eastern European writers writing about the history of these subjects (partisans, etc.) in their own country/region less than I trust the works by historians outside the region. This is because I find there to be too much nationalism and grievance collection. To give you a different example, I would be much more likely (leaving all other considerations aside) to trust a French historian's work regarding Romanian-Hungarian issues than I would be likely to trust a Romanian or Hungarian writer. The French writer is more likely not to have an axe to grind.

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#12

Post by KACKO » 16 Aug 2006, 21:17

Well Pitman,

as I am one from region,
actually what you said is mostly true. But still you can find historians from region who are, or at least the are trying :), to be fair and unbiased.

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#13

Post by pitman » 16 Aug 2006, 23:10

KACKO wrote:Well Pitman,

as I am one from region,
actually what you said is mostly true. But still you can find historians from region who are, or at least the are trying :), to be fair and unbiased.
I would agree; I tried to stress I was making a generalization and not an absolute point.

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#14

Post by szopen » 17 Aug 2006, 10:13

pitman wrote: It would be far more likely that a Polish writer would use the subject as an attempt to discredit Ukrainians, and vice versa.
POlish populat writer, maybe, but not Polish historians. I have first find out about the "pacification" actions in Vohlyn from before the war from articles of Polish historians. Similarly, the counter-terror actions of AK also were quite openly described by Polish historians.

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#15

Post by szopen » 17 Aug 2006, 10:17

pitman wrote:
szopen wrote:Or "Polish sources are bad" while "English sources which are almost solely based on Soviet sources are good"
You are conflating two different versions of the word "source."

In one sense, "source" can mean anything from which one can get information, even a book published by someone else. In another sense, a "source" is original information, such as a contemporary document.
Of course. I am asking why you are trusting more publishers who are basing their books on reports from Soviet sources (original documents, reports, memories) rather than those, who are basing their books on both Soviet and Polish sources (ORIGINAL documents etc)
Those are wildly different things. All historians should look at all relevant sources (in the second sense of the word)--Polish, Soviet, Jewish, Ukrainian, whatever. Of course, they should not accept any of those sources uncritically.
Exactly. That's why I think western literature is crap IF they have no reports about criminal activities of Zorin and Bielski's. BEcause those reports are ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS which can be easily found. You said books about Bielski's do not confirm that. I say that those books are crap if they are ignoring all the original reports, memories and documents which were, for example, analysed in the book of Z. Boradyn. Z. Boradyn based his books on analysis of Soviet archives, AK reports, published memories, interviews with surviving witnesses etc.
Did any of your Bielski books contain a single reference to memories of AK members from the region?

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