Stauffenberg´s true motivation?

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tyrodtom
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Re: Stauffenberg´s true motivation?

#16

Post by tyrodtom » 12 Jan 2014, 02:35

little grey rabbit wrote:Gisevius didn't like Stauffenberg much. He told Dulles that Stauffenberg was intending to deal exclusively with the Soviets and open up the Eastern Front. Or maybe Dulles made that up to try and encourage Washington to deal with the Resistance.

If Stauffenberg had been truly courageous he would have not chosen a time delayed fuse and scarpered. As it is everyone who died in his explosion seemed to have some connection with the Wehrmacht resistance.
Who in the building blown up by Stauffenberg's had a connection to the resistance ?

Stauffenberg at no other time showed any signs of being lacking in courage, it seems a cheap shot to criticize him for lack of courage for not staying to die with his bomb. Any reasonable person would have expected it to work. We just know from the comfort of hindsight that it probably would have been more successful if he had stayed.

But Stauffenberg was aware that the resistance was lacking for leaders and knew his leadership was still needed.

little grey rabbit
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Re: Stauffenberg´s true motivation?

#17

Post by little grey rabbit » 14 Jan 2014, 12:15

But Stauffenberg was aware that the resistance was lacking for leaders and knew his leadership was still needed
And you know this how?

As far as I can tell everyone of rank had some kind of connection with the resistance or at least a sympathiser
eg Schmundt
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Sch ... Widerstand
Heusinger who was badly hospitalised

Anyway, the criticism is not from me but from Karl Koller of the Luftwaffe who was rather mysteriously absent that day. As was Goering - his excuse was that he didn't like Mussolini so he threw a sickie. Koller said he was dragged out of the car by Korten who insisted on going (and dying) in his place.

Anyway here is Karl Koller before Judge Musmano
Another objection to this particular attempt is this. This is concerned with the manner in which it was done. I myself saw Stauffenberg quite frequently with the fuehrer when he and I alone were standing opposite the fuehrer's desk. If on those occasions, Stauffenberg had simply taken his pistol and shot him down, that would have been perfectly feasible, of course he would have risked being beaten to death by the guards afterwards.
But the method he chose was to put this attack of ammunition explosives on the floor of the fueher's study and risk killing his own friends, which in fact he did. What he also did, he put this case down and he said "Goodbye" to friends of his, for instance Col. Brandt. He said "Goodbye, I am going now. All the best." A few minutes later, the Colonel was dead. That manner in which he made his attempt we all objected to.
But I dare say you have superior insight


tyrodtom
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Re: Stauffenberg´s true motivation?

#18

Post by tyrodtom » 14 Jan 2014, 18:27

If Karl Koller was absent that day, then how could he give such first person testimony ?

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valkyrie
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Re: Stauffenberg´s true motivation?

#19

Post by valkyrie » 15 Jan 2014, 22:16

Gangster methods to get rid of gangsters. To suggest that Stauffenberg could have shot Hitler in some sort of quick draw feat of arms given he had a buttoned holster and only 1 thumb and 2 fingers is ludicrous. Previous assassination plans involving pistols had been abandoned even tough they involved unwounded officers with reputations as crack shots. Criticism of Stauffenberg's method always comes down to some arcane view of honour. Almost all the attempts that had a chance ( e.g. Tresckow, Gersdorff) involved bomb attacks with likely collateral damage. Also I have never seen any reference to Stauffenberg saying goodbye to Brandt in any of the many books I have read on this topic and I doubt he did - a fine and silly way to put everyone on guard when he left the Lagebaracke. The gent you quote wasn't there so couldn't know.

Colin

little grey rabbit
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Re: Stauffenberg´s true motivation?

#20

Post by little grey rabbit » 16 Jan 2014, 03:56

If Karl Koller was absent that day, then how could he give such first person testimony ?
Also I have never seen any reference to Stauffenberg saying goodbye to Brandt in any of the many books I have read on this topic and I doubt he did - a fine and silly way to put everyone on guard when he left the Lagebaracke. The gent you quote wasn't there so couldn't know.
The phrase the German joke is no laughing matter springs to mind. I expect Koller wasn't expecting to be taken literally.

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valkyrie
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Re: Stauffenberg´s true motivation?

#21

Post by valkyrie » 16 Jan 2014, 06:52

Sorry I don't fully understand your response LGR.

Anyway, people will never agree on whether or not Stauffenberg's action was cowardly or houpnourable. But he thought it necessary. As a practicing Catholic, the impact for his soul from committing mass murder was likely of greater concern to Stauffenberg than whether or not his actions aligned with the honour code if his profession and social class. He knew he would go down in history as a traitor and a murderer.....I am sure he would be shocked and a little horrified to see what his public image is within Germany today. Nina v S said as much in the Meding book and she knew him best.

Colin

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Re: Stauffenberg´s true motivation?

#22

Post by little grey rabbit » 16 Jan 2014, 07:03

valkyrie wrote:Sorry I don't fully understand your response LGR.
Sorry, I think Koller was using a rhetorical device known as humor to make his point. Perhaps it didn't come across in the translation, but when I read it I did not for a second assume that Koller was actually saying that Stauffenberg said anything like so long, good luck.

Maybe your interpretation was conditioned by tyrodtom's reply?
Honorable or not, his actions were certainly a complete flop. Since not only did he not kill Hitler, he didn't even manage to kill or hospitalize a Hitler loyalist.

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valkyrie
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Re: Stauffenberg´s true motivation?

#23

Post by valkyrie » 16 Jan 2014, 08:24

Thanks. I agree the assassination failed in that Hitler was only wounded and the regime was only sidelined for a short time. I don't think you will find anyone to disagree. The impact on other officers is not relevant as they were only collateral damage and death/life did not impact the success/ failure of Valkyrie.

Thanks

Colin

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