60th Anniversary - White Rose

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
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witness
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#16

Post by witness » 22 Feb 2003, 15:10

Mike Knowlton wrote:Are you dense? They were obviously the exception to the rule. If there was "another Germany" it didn't even number in double digits.
Well I would say that you are quite dense.. :)
What I said that there were people who opposed Nazism in Germany not that they were in majority. I didn't say that there was "another Germany "
Whom are you quoting ? 8O

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Mike K.
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#17

Post by Mike K. » 22 Feb 2003, 15:14

Responding to everything I say with "And your point is?" gets really annoying. :?


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witness
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#18

Post by witness » 22 Feb 2003, 15:15

Well it is not gonna be my concern. :)

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Psycho Mike
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#19

Post by Psycho Mike » 22 Feb 2003, 17:52

Well The Honorable Elijah Muhammed and his American Islam group was long suspected of taking money from Japan before and during World War 2 (the file is still classified, so even if I'd read it I couldn't say much more than that) and he was given a jail term for resisting the draft and urging other African/Jamaican etc. Blacks to do so. He was not, however, executed the same day as his arrest!

I think the one leaflet they wrote, on the impossibility of any ism or utopia on the left or right ever being attained would have also got them executed in Stalin's Russia. It is a quite interesting read.

Thanks again Nigel for making us think about this. And I keep them in my heart.

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WTW26
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#20

Post by WTW26 » 22 Feb 2003, 17:58

witness wrote:
Polkovnik Sakharov wrote:
witness wrote:Of course they were heroes. These people showed that Germany was not all about Nazis and that there were some thinking people with the real guts who dared to oppose the bloody regime.
At the cost of their Motherland, eh?
Said a man with the ROA avatar .. :roll:

Of course for you Vlasov was a hero ...
But he got what he deserved didn't he ? :D
Vlasov wasn't a hero. But there were many people in ROA who believed sincerely that they would fight for Russia's freedom and against Bolshevism. That's why, not because of Vlasov, I chose this avatar. But even between those ROA soldiers who changed sides just out of self-centred considerations and the members of the White Rose there is a big difference. The ROA soldiers fought against their country openly, along with enemy troops. And those people from the White Rose stabbed their country in the back.

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witness
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#21

Post by witness » 22 Feb 2003, 18:06

Polkovnik Sakharov wrote:
witness wrote:
Polkovnik Sakharov wrote:
witness wrote:Of course they were heroes. These people showed that Germany was not all about Nazis and that there were some thinking people with the real guts who dared to oppose the bloody regime.
At the cost of their Motherland, eh?
Said a man with the ROA avatar .. :roll:

Of course for you Vlasov was a hero ...
But he got what he deserved didn't he ? :D
Vlasov wasn't a hero. But there were many people in ROA who believed sincerely that they would fight for Russia's freedom and against Bolshevism.
Yes sure on the German side..Having chosen to lick the Nazi boot.
On the side of the people who considered all Slavs to be "subhumans "
BTW Hitler was quite opposite to the broader involvement of ROA in the military operations not wanting to be dependant on "subhumans" in any way.
Good avatar really.
About 30 millions of your compatriots died at the Nazi hands..
Yeah -" White rose" is baaad ..
Vlasov is goood...
P.S.There is one good Russian word for such people - Gnida .
Last edited by witness on 22 Feb 2003, 18:07, edited 1 time in total.

FL Jim
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#22

Post by FL Jim » 22 Feb 2003, 18:07

Yes, I believe "heroes" is appropriate. There are things that transcend nations---ideals such as individual freedom, resistance to grossly evil regimes, and, if one is religious, loyalty to one's God over the state.

Resistence to evil is a moral imperative which is why I am not a pacifist. There are some things for which it is worth sacrificing one's own life. There are wars that are necessary. Resistance to German aggression in World War II is clearly such a case. Resistance to dictatorship as Eastern Europeans did when they threw off communism is another.

If a government demands betrayal of one's own conscience so that the government can claim total acquiesence to concentration camps, aggression against peaceful nations, then sacrificing oneself is not necessarily treason. When Sir Thomas More refused to betray his church as Henry VIII demanded, More maintained his loyalty to a higher authority and paid the price. Not many except the most narrow of nationalists would say that More was committing treason against the safety of the English people of his day. (Note: I do not reject nationalism either if a nation is a constitutional government that does not abuse the natural rights of life, liberty, and property--read John Locke for more details).

The members of the White Rose did not commit murder of innocents to further their cause. They asked their fellow Germans to resist the murderous policies of the Nazi regime.

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#23

Post by Marcus » 22 Feb 2003, 18:19

FL Jim wrote:Yes, I believe "heroes" is appropriate. There are things that transcend nations---ideals such as individual freedom, resistance to grossly evil regimes, and, if one is religious, loyalty to one's God over the state.
The above sums up my thoughts on the issue in a very nice way.

/Marcus

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#24

Post by Colbro » 22 Feb 2003, 19:32

FL Jim- An absolutely brilliant posting. Hans and Sophie Scholl and the other brave youngsters condemned, in my opinion, rank with the likes of pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Your comparison with Sir Thomas More is most apposite. What was it he said before his execution? "I die the King's good servant but God's first!"

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#25

Post by Scott Smith » 23 Feb 2003, 12:31

FL Jim wrote:Yes, I believe "heroes" is appropriate. There are things that transcend nations---ideals such as individual freedom, resistance to grossly evil regimes, and, if one is religious, loyalty to one's God over the state.
What is Evil? How does one objectify this? And where is this God? I would like to have a word with him...
Resistence to evil is a moral imperative which is why I am not a pacifist.
I'm not a pacifist either. And I don't particularly care for peace-creeps. But they are the only ones opposing Bush's Interventionist war, so they deserve some notice and my respect. Unless and until war is actually declared against Iraq I will continue to speak out against Bush and his vile gang. But I would never betray my own country and side with people who are murdering its citizens because of my differences with the regime. And I sure as hell would not invoke diety in support of such haughty political agendas.
There are some things for which it is worth sacrificing one's own life. There are wars that are necessary. Resistance to German aggression in World War II is clearly such a case. Resistance to dictatorship as Eastern Europeans did when they threw off communism is another.
Resistance to Germany's enemies was also a worthy goal and one supported by 99.9% of Germans.
If a government demands betrayal of one's own conscience so that the government can claim total acquiesence to concentration camps, aggression against peaceful nations, then sacrificing oneself is not necessarily treason.
Adhering to the enemies of your country who kill its citizens is always treason.
When Sir Thomas More refused to betray his church as Henry VIII demanded, More maintained his loyalty to a higher authority and paid the price. Not many except the most narrow of nationalists would say that More was committing treason against the safety of the English people of his day.
If one views Popery as an alien influence, then More (cannonized in 1935) was a traitor to his Nation as well as his King. The King of England may not have had England's interests entirely at heart, but Henry--and not the pious More, who burnt more heretics at the stake as Lord Chancellor than his admirers will care to admit--was still the King.
Note: I do not reject nationalism either if a nation is a constitutional government that does not abuse the natural rights of life, liberty, and property--read John Locke for more details.
Part of my differences with the government is that all it does is respect the rights of property, and it has learned how to manipulate fear and attempts to justify the loss of liberty.
The members of the White Rose did not commit murder of innocents to further their cause. They asked their fellow Germans to resist the murderous policies of the Nazi regime.
And they did this by siding with Germany's enemies in a very brutal war, so the government made an example out of them. Instead of execution they should have been sent to work in a hospital for German burn victims after Allied bombing raids.

A better way than treason is freedom-of-speech and assembly and to petition the government for redress of grievances, although Tolerance isn't something that can be legislated. A loyal-opposition is not always possible in wartime--but that is no excuse for treason. Today the Germans think they are acting democratically by criminalizing so-called Hate-speech that makes the Germans look like Nazis--nevermind that most Germans favored Hitler's broad goals and supported their beloved Führer.

The Bundestablishment honoring a bunch of traitors is just their cynical way of putting a spin on that.
:)
Last edited by Scott Smith on 23 Feb 2003, 22:21, edited 4 times in total.

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#26

Post by Psycho Mike » 23 Feb 2003, 14:59

I guess where I am confused Scott is I read the website and all they seemed to do was the exact same thing that protesters are doing now- except they were more coherent and did not give aid to their enemy. People have written "Peace Now" on the walls of the train station, the White Rose painted slogans on some walls. People hand me flyers when I go to work, The White Rose delievered flyers. I don't get the part where they aided the allies. North Korean delegates are allowed to speak at the Peace fests today calling for the violent worldwide overthrowal of our government- but you don't have a problem with that. But I don't recall seeing on the website that The White Rose copied any American propaganda and passed it around.
Where do you see this on the website, or do you have info I'm not getting?
Finally in Munich, there are posted signs and memorials to The White Rose throughout the city. If they were traitors, would people still allow them to be up?

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#27

Post by Mike K. » 23 Feb 2003, 17:01

Mike, the difference is that in 1943 Germany was engaged in a war of total annihilation, encircled and fighting for her life against demands of Unconditional Surrender. The Iraq war hasn't even started yet, and is in no way comparable to WWII.

As for Munich, the criteria for getting a memorial in modern Germany is being Holocaust related or anti-Hitler. So the White Rose, who called for sabotaging Germany's means of defending herself at this crucial period of the war, get a memorial.

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#28

Post by Colbro » 23 Feb 2003, 18:05

Hi Scott
The luxury of deciding whether or not to invoke a Deity is a relatively modern concept. In 16th century England, agnosticism and atheism were not options.
On the subject of traitors, the last words of Klaus von Stauffenberg was a cry of "Long live our sacred Germany!" and then the bullets flew. To which particular Germany was he alluding? To the Third Reich, or some other administration? Traitor or patriot?
Oh, sure, in the simple definition of treason, he tried to blow up the Head of State and was therefore guilty, even worse, you might argue, because of his pesonal oath of allegiance to the Fuehrer. But in the broader scheme of things, did he have the best interests of the Fatherland at heart?
Last edited by Colbro on 23 Feb 2003, 21:45, edited 1 time in total.

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#29

Post by witness » 23 Feb 2003, 18:28

Colbro wrote :
But in the broader scheme of things, did he have the best interests of the Fatherland at heart?
I agree. The Soviet dissidents also can be considered as traitors ( and were considered as such by the Communist authorities and often by the common folks as well)of the State.
Were they traitors ? No- they were couragious people who dared to oppose the totalitarian regime , as "White Rose" did.
Was the movement against the war in Vietnam a treason ? Again the same no.
Regards.

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#30

Post by Scott Smith » 23 Feb 2003, 21:43

Mike Knowlton wrote:Mike, the difference is that in 1943 Germany was engaged in a war of total annihilation, encircled and fighting for her life against demands of Unconditional Surrender. The Iraq war hasn't even started yet, and is in no way comparable to WWII.

As for Munich, the criteria for getting a memorial in modern Germany is being Holocaust related or anti-Hitler. So the White Rose, who called for sabotaging Germany's means of defending herself at this crucial period of the war, get a memorial.
Well said!
:D

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