20 July plot

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bubalma
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Re: 20 July plot

#31

Post by bubalma » 17 Jan 2016, 06:44

Hitler's legs were definitely injured.
According to Heinz Linge (Hitler's valet) - who was present at the time - around 200 wood splinters were removed from Hitler's legs after the attempt.
That could probably really tear up a pair of pants. I'm guessing that some of the tears are also a result of cutting the pants off before removing the wood splinters.

Pete26
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Re: 20 July plot

#32

Post by Pete26 » 22 Jan 2016, 21:12

bubalma wrote:Hitler's legs were definitely injured.
According to Heinz Linge (Hitler's valet) - who was present at the time - around 200 wood splinters were removed from Hitler's legs after the attempt.
That could probably really tear up a pair of pants. I'm guessing that some of the tears are also a result of cutting the pants off before removing the wood splinters.
According to one account I read, Hitler constantly complained about his ruined pants. They apparently were a new pair that he wore maybe for the first time when the explosion took place. This only reinforces how pathological this man really was - who on earth would on complain about ruined pants, having narrowly survived an assassination attempt like this relatively unharmed?

And for an outstanding analysis of Hitler's persona, recommend the following source:

"Inside Hitler's Bunker" by Joachim Fest, pages 128-134. ISBN: 0-312-42392-6


ChristopherPerrien
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Re: 20 July plot

#33

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 24 Jan 2016, 03:38

Pete26 wrote:
bubalma wrote:Hitler's legs were definitely injured.
According to Heinz Linge (Hitler's valet) - who was present at the time - around 200 wood splinters were removed from Hitler's legs after the attempt.
That could probably really tear up a pair of pants. I'm guessing that some of the tears are also a result of cutting the pants off before removing the wood splinters.
According to one account I read, Hitler constantly complained about his ruined pants. They apparently were a new pair that he wore maybe for the first time when the explosion took place. This only reinforces how pathological this man really was - who on earth would on complain about ruined pants, having narrowly survived an assassination attempt like this relatively unharmed?

And for an outstanding analysis of Hitler's persona, recommend the following source:

"Inside Hitler's Bunker" by Joachim Fest, pages 128-134. ISBN: 0-312-42392-6
By that time , Hitler was severely addicted to barbiturates and who knows what else, thanks to that quack Dr. Morrell. Also the given "stress" of the situation , it is not unusual for people to focus on small things. Also there is a fair certainty he had a concussion. I think that is noted in some sources as partial "hearing loss"
Plus having been in the trenches of WWI and blinded by gas for a time, he had experience far worse before.

And also , a good pair of pants, you like , can be hard to find. :wink:

little grey rabbit
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Re: 20 July plot

#34

Post by little grey rabbit » 27 Jan 2016, 09:41

bubalma wrote:Hitler's legs were definitely injured.
According to Heinz Linge (Hitler's valet) - who was present at the time - around 200 wood splinters were removed from Hitler's legs after the attempt.
That could probably really tear up a pair of pants. I'm guessing that some of the tears are also a result of cutting the pants off before removing the wood splinters.
Since the bomb went off at 12:42 and met Mussolini at the train station at 16:00, they were removing wood splinters at a rate greater than 1 a minute. Which in fairness is doable.

But I have seen a greater discrepancy between all the textual descriptions of Hitler's injuries and the photographic record of him and Mussolini that afternoon.
Case in point: from Hitler and Mussolini: The Secret Meetings by Santi Corvaja, page 291
A few minutes past four in the afternoon on July 20, 1944, Mussolini's train pulled into the station of the Wolf's Lair, under its conventional name of "Goerlitz." The Duce was at the window with Marshal Graziani at his side. Adolf Hitler was on the platform ready to great him. Behind the Führer were von Ribbentrop, Himmler, Bormann, Keitel, Göring and Dönitz. The air was damp with fog and rain, and the trees waved gently in the wind. Despite the humidity, Hitler was wearing his black coat, his right arm was in a sling. His face was red, his hair appeared burnt, and he had protective cotton balls in his ears. Mussolini approached the Fuehrer with a look of utter astonishment at the sight.
Hitler went up to the Duce and with a slow intensity said: "Duce, man hat eben eine Höllenmaschine über mich losgelassen" (Duce, they have just thrown an infernal machine at me.)
As Anfuso recounted: "Just one look at the Führer's would have been enough to convince us that they had indeed him with a bomb, but the term he used led Mussolini to believe that Hitler was talking about a political machination was typical of his usual phraseology."
To be honest, I think I would have shared Mussolini's puzzlement, because he appears the picture of health.

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von thoma
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Re: 20 July plot

#35

Post by von thoma » 28 Jan 2016, 03:13

Yes, logically he should have appeared carrying a crutch...
Otherwise, the pants shown on picture, it seems to me a very large size, they could belong to any other wounded.
" The right to believe is the right of those who don't know "

ChristopherPerrien
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Re: 20 July plot

#36

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 28 Jan 2016, 13:42

Notice Hitler is shaking and reaching for Mussolini's hand with his left arm/hand, which is a serious courtesy and diplomatic faux pas'. IIRC, his right arm was slightly injured in the blast. Which IIRC, from most of the bomb blast room diagrams, was on the side closest to the blast of the bomb under the table

Given the "moment" of El Duce arriving and the public photo op for morale to any Axis Italian leanings in Italy or the prospect to influence the same, Hitler would have done the best he could. And he was right handed, so that photo lends credence to his right arm/side was injured(bruised/numb) also.
his right arm was in a sling.
Logically, yes maybe a crutch/sling might have been called for, but that would not have looked good as to presenting the leader in the best light after an assassination attempt or at any time. Same reason so few photos of FDR exist with him in a wheelchair.

little grey rabbit
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Re: 20 July plot

#37

Post by little grey rabbit » 03 May 2016, 14:41

Mr Perrien, you might enjoy this 22 July 1944 article

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 9947&hl=en

I always wondered why almost every ranking person killed seemed to have some connection to the resistance.

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At very least he is going to be unable to walk that same day - I imagine whoever was wearing those trousers lost his lower legs

ChristopherPerrien
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Re: 20 July plot

#38

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 04 May 2016, 09:30

Interesting newspaper, b=gives lie to how much of a propaganda and psyops battle was going on at the the time.

As to his "shredded" pants. Note: I gather they were cut off of him and I as noted earlier in the topic concussive blast waves act strangely. People can have their clothes blown off and walk away from a blast with no injuries or as side from concussive injuries such as bruising and hearing damage. So by looks it cannot be said a person would automatically lose limbs. IF you had seen the seen a pair of pants I had on after a 3 wheeler wreck , you would think no way that guy did not have multiple leg fractures or worse. Humans are much tougher than much linen/cotton clothing to pressure change ie."wind".

So in other words I would rate his legs injuries to cuts and bruises, which can be walked away from. Strangely all the minor info about AH having one ball or one undescended testicle, in this case worked to his advantage. As those things are more vulnerable to blast effects than a leg or abdomen. Which is of much concern to soldier then and now , and is a problem issue with landmines and IED's. It is easier to have your balls blown off than to lose a leg to an explosion near your legs or feet barring a blast directly under your foot. In those cases the foot/lower leg/leg is gone and very possible ball(s) too.

little grey rabbit
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Re: 20 July plot

#39

Post by little grey rabbit » 05 May 2016, 07:20

ChristopherPerrien wrote:Interesting newspaper, b=gives lie to how much of a propaganda and psyops battle was going on at the the time.

IF you had seen the seen a pair of pants I had on after a 3 wheeler wreck , you would think no way that guy did not have multiple leg fractures or worse.
Alas no, I have not been so fortunate. Did you keep a picture of them to compare?

Actually Alan Dulles was so impressed by the informant he sent a dispatch on the matter back to Washington
I have just heard tonight from a good source that Berger, Hitler's co-worker, who was the only one immediately killed at the time of the attack on Hitler, was Hitler's double. Possibly Stauffenberg, who probably did not know Hitler very well, made a mistake
Radio transmission 182, July 24 1944

Perhaps if Dulles had had the good fortune to see your trousers he would not have fallen for such a rookie error?

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