Wehrwolf: German resistance to the Allied occupation

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Habu
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#151

Post by Habu » 29 Jun 2007, 13:42

Very little mention in the official US Army history of the Occupation 1944-46: http://www.army.mil/cmh/books/wwii/Occ-GY/index.htm

Some Googling around turned up the information that the author Von Schadewald was quoting, Steven Plaut, based his piece on a book by Biddiscombe: Werwolf! The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946. For such unusual conclusions, there seems to be little mention in the academic press.

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#152

Post by Penn44 » 29 Jun 2007, 16:34

Von Schadewald, what is your source for the Steven Plaut passages?

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ChristopherPerrien
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#153

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 29 Jun 2007, 18:24

We have done a fair job of burying the Werwolf myth in several topics. It is obvious Steve Plaut is "cherry-picking" data out of context and out of an already very over-sensationalized and questionable book about the werwolf movement, in a column/editorial to justify extreme measures against today's "terrorists/anti-semites/nazis/Arabs/moslems/non-zionists/ whatever".

He has no clue about the Geneva Coventions and uses the use of "Martial Law" in post-war Germany to imply that the Allies did not follow the Geneva Conventions, therefore they do not need to be followed today when oppressing/supressing today's
"terrorists/anti-semites/nazis/Arabs/moslems/non-zionists/ whatever".

It was understood among U.S. troops that they had a green light for
applying frontier justice to terrorists, with no lawyers or trials.
The counterinsurgency manual issued by the Supreme Headquarters
Allied Expedition Force (SHAEF) recommended that troops simply ignore
Geneva Convention rules when dealing with the Werwolf.
No clue, and he can shove his bs wording about US troops. As I said he ignores what martial law means and that it is acceptable in war, under the laws of war.

that era nevertheless teaches us that a determined
no-nonsense campaign of wiping out terrorism with armed force is
capable of succeeding, even against the most brutal of opponents.
Trouble was there was no "terrorism" in postwar Germany.
Brutal opponents?. It is obvious this guy gets-off on advocating the shooting of German(Nazi :roll: ) children in 1946 and Arab children today, spray-painting buildings.


Determined denazification of fanatic violent populations was also
shown to work.
What the hell is he talking about?
Rather, it was designed
to demoralize - to defeat the enemy by generating growing casualties
over long periods and trigger defeatism among the enemy's home
population.
Sounds like what is going on today in some countries.

Such success is not easy, nor does it come cheaply."
Of course it doesn't, oppressors inflict alot of damage before the oppressed a.k.a. "terrorists", finally succeed. Just look at the Partisan War in Russia during WWII.

Steve Plaut uses the mythical suppression of the mythical werwolf movement after WWII, to justify current REAL atrocites in the equally mythical "War on Terror" . Which is just doublespeak for the "War on non-zionists".

Chris

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#154

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 29 Jun 2007, 19:41

Werewolves in the 60s?
Van Schadewald,

There was some opposition to Western military presence in Germany post-war. But it was not the Werwolf organization. Basically that opposition was similar in nature as the opposition to US presence in Germany today, or any country in Europe. The peace-nik, anti-nuke, Green crowd.

Most opposition to foreign presence in Europe is left-wing or was communist. The Red Army Faction is the best example of militant left -wing opposition. It can be said it started in the 60's even though it was not officially founded until 1970. Others lean left or towards the communist movement , or they were merely a front for "communism", when it had some direction from the USSR.

The Werwolf organization would have been an example of "right -wing " or "nationalist" opposition. It was 99.99% just a paper dream of Himmler and Goebbels. Resistance groups that are truely "right -wing" are few and far between in Europe, and don't work there, because of the NSDAP(a right -wing organization) example and subsequent disaster. That is why the Werwolf organzation, never got organized or did anything. Only 1 incident can honestly be attributed to the Werewovles(the assasination of the Mayor of Aachen). And was done by SS agents, not civilians, while the war was still going on(Mar45).

All other incidents(post-war) were either real criminals(robbers/murderers) at work, UXB's going off, vandalism, or servicemen drinking stuff when they did not know what it was , like methyl alcohol.

Chris

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RE: Werewolves In The 1960's.

#155

Post by Robert Rojas » 30 Jun 2007, 10:25

Greetings to both brother Christopher Perrien and the community as a whole. Howdy Chris! Well sir, old Uncle Bob would like to build upon your installment of Friday - June 29, 2007 - 7:41pm by interjecting the infamous organization known as the Baader-Meinhof gang into this discussion. Like its Red Army faction protege, the Baader-Meinhof gang also carried on with its own unique brand of "revolutionary" activities within the Federal Republic of Germany from 1968 through 1977. Speaking purely from an anecdotal perspective on this matter, old yours truly would assert (rightly OR wrongly) that the nihilist Baader-Meinhof gang was the closest manifestation to the so-called Werewolf Organization to surface in the contemporary German State. Well, that's my initial two cents or pfennigs worth on this unusual topic of interest - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you a copacetic day over in the Magnolia State.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :) :wink: 8-)

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Re: RE: Werewolves In The 1960's.

#156

Post by Penn44 » 30 Jun 2007, 18:11

Robert Rojas wrote: ... the nihilist Baader-Meinhof gang was the closest manifestation to the so-called Werewolf Organization to surface in the contemporary German State. ...
That was a left-wing terrorist group not associated with Werwolf in anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6314559.stm

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#157

Post by Penn44 » 30 Jun 2007, 22:02

ChristopherPerrien wrote: That is why the Werwolf organzation, never got organized or did anything. Only 1 incident can honestly be attributed to the Werewovles(the assasination of the Mayor of Aachen). And was done by SS agents, not civilians, while the war was still going on(Mar45).

All other incidents(post-war) were either real criminals(robbers/murderers) at work, UXB's going off, vandalism, or servicemen drinking stuff when they did not know what it was , like methyl alcohol.
There were some small-scale, localized acts of armed resistance against western Allied forces conducted by right-wing, nationalist individuals or small groups in occupied Germany in the late 1940s. None of these activities were associated with any Nazi "Werwolf operation." None of these groups developed into a zonal-wide resistance. But to say that no acts of resistance occurred from these groups is incorrect.

Postwar Germany certainly had a relatively recent memory of right-wing, nationalist paramilitary resistance groups in the Freikorps during the Weimar period. All-in-all, the primary reason why large-scale armed German right-wing, nationalist resistance did not develop against Allied occupation in the western zones was not because of the debacle of the Nazi years per se. There were a number of unredeemed Nazis around in the postwar era. The primary reason why organized, widespread resistance did not develop in the western zones was because US and British occupation, although odious to some German nationalists, was still a far better alternative than being occupied by the Soviets.

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#158

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 01 Jul 2007, 00:32

A fine post Penn, yes I am sure there were a few "pissed off", sore loser ,Nazis in post war Germany, and I know what you're saying. As in the nature of all "generalities", which I use alot (red-neck I am :lol: ), the exception(s) , prove the rule.

Chris
Postwar Germany certainly had a relatively recent memory of right-wing, nationalist paramilitary resistance groups in the Freikorps during the Weimar period.
Dam accurate, The FreiKorps/Stalhelm was the equivalent to our VFW and American legion given harsh economic times.
The primary reason why organized, widespread resistance did not develop in the western zones was because US and British occupation, although odious to some German nationalists, was still a far better alternative than being occupied by the Soviets.
Nail on the head, here.

Even old Nazi's, except the idiot "die-hards" conceeded "Capitalism" is better than "Communism".

Chris

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#159

Post by Penn44 » 01 Jul 2007, 16:48

ChristopherPerrien wrote: Even old Nazi's, except the idiot "die-hards" conceeded "Capitalism" is better than "Communism".

Chris
Perhaps more of a potentional threat lay with the young Nazis and not the old. During the war, the Hitler Jugend had demonstrated on several occasions their commitment towards the cause and potential for violence. Their armed participation in several battles is well-documented. There were also several instances where member of Hitler Jugend were particularly violent towards downed Allied airmen, and in the last weeks of the war there were instances of where they were violent towards stragglers in the evacuation marches of KZ prisoners and POWs. Hitler Jugend killed two American POWs in a case I am examining. They were also implicated in some postwar acts of armed resistance.

I think Perry Biddiscombe in his Werwolf!: The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946 does a disservice by fluffing up too much the virtually non-existent "Werwolf" movement, and not examining what German resistance to Allied occupation did exist in the its full spectrum (from unarmed to armed), and relating in more detail why the later type did not develop except in relatively small, isolated cases, and eventually petered out. I think an examination of the US Counter-Intelligence Corps (CIC) and military government files might reveal much more.

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#160

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 01 Jul 2007, 19:32

Perhaps more of a potentional threat lay with the young Nazis and not the old. During the war, the Hitler Jugend had demonstrated on several occasions their commitment towards the cause and potential for violence. Their armed participation in several battles is well-documented.
True. Still I would call "postwar" actions by former Hitler youth, vandalism or just plain "crime". Granted teenagers and boys trained in the use of weapons and explosives could do some damage if they were so inclined. Now that I am old, most soldiers seem no more than boys to me. We agree it had no connection to the Werwolf org though.

You have a point about "young Nazis". Surely some of them were more "die hard" than even old nazis.
Paraphase:

"If I say, "Come over to me" and you do not , it is no matter, for you will soon be gone and your children already belong to us". -AH

Chris


I am worried about you Penn44 , you seem "Nicer" lately :lol: . Did you get laid ?, win the lottery, prozac?, something? If you start including "links" in posts, I will start considering the presence of a doppelganger. :lol:

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#161

Post by Robert Rojas » 01 Jul 2007, 20:52

Greetings to both citizen von Schadewald and the community as a whole. Well V.S., in reference to your introductory posting of Friday - June 29, 2007 - 12:48am, old Uncle Bob cannot say with any degree of certainty what shape and character the embryonic Werewolf organization MIGHT have morphed into between May 08, 1945 and December 31, 1969. Quite frankly, I do not think anyone can offer you a satisfactory answer to your pointed inquiry. With that said, it is ironic that it was most notably the underground elements of the radical "left" which ultimately took up the clandestine armed struggle against the established social democratic political order of the Federal Republic of Germany during the latter 1960's and beyond. When I look back at the radical left's activities of the 1960's and the 1970's, I cannot help but think what Joseph Goebbels had to say about the street toughs of the S.A. - BROWN ON THE OUTSIDE AND RED ON THE INSIDE. Old yours truly will leave the now defunct German Democratic Republic and the present day Austrian Republic out of this contentious mix for another day. It's just some friendly food for thought - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of the Balkans.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|

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#162

Post by Penn44 » 02 Jul 2007, 03:23

Some of the instances of "unrest" against Allied occupations was not due to "political" reasons. Some of the unrest was due to Allied soldier misbehavior in German communities. Some of it was a reaction to US soldiers dating German girls, and this understandably upset the German men. The German men had fought the war for Germany, and now they saw German girls who gave themselves over to Allied soldiers for cigarettes and candy bars. See Perry Biddiscombe's Werwolf!: The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946. Why Biddiscombe named his book Werwolf when 99% of the incidents he reports in his book were not associated with Werwolf activities is a mystery.
ChristopherPerrien wrote: I am worried about you Penn44 , you seem "Nicer" lately :lol: . Did you get laid ?, win the lottery, prozac?, something? If you start including "links" in posts, I will start considering the presence of a doppelganger. :lol:
I am touched you are worried about me, CP. You have me all misty-eyed here.

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#163

Post by Peter H » 02 Jul 2007, 14:59

From Plaut:
In the campaign against the Werwolf, an estimated 3,000-5,500 terrorists were killed
If I'm correct Biddiscombe only gives 700 deaths 1945-1950,inclusive resisters,civilians etc.

Equate this to the 34,000 Iraqi deaths in 2006.

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#164

Post by Penn44 » 02 Jul 2007, 15:55

I asked Von Schadewald for his source of the Steven Plaut article, but after several days, no response.

After an Internet search I found the article on Steven Plaut's blogspot:
http://stevenplaut.blogspot.com/

Plaut is an economist, not a historian. He is an outspoken member of the Israeli far right. After reviewing Plaut's blogspot, and reading some articles on him, Plaut has a clear political agenda, and I highly recommend to the forum readers that they execise the appropriate level of caution when reading Plaut's article. Apparently, the aim of Plaut's article on the Werwolf is not to advance historical knowledge of Allied and Soviet actions against these Nazi guerrillas, but to justify Israeli actions against Palestinians.

See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Plaut

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#165

Post by TISO » 05 Jul 2007, 01:59

One also has to take into the account that soon after the start of the occupation when cold war became cold, OSS and similar western allied organisations started to organize stay behind networks in case of Soviet invasion. The only guarantie that perspective members are not red was that they were brown (i.e. nazi). Claiming that Werwolf operations lasted up to the 60's is at best uninformed (at worst idiotic) since rightists/nationalists/nazis were at that time working for US, UK and not for some past dream of 100 year reich.

For genesis of stay behind armies in NATO countries and subsequent problems ( military cues in Greece and Turkey, one succesfull cue in Italy, their terrorist actions in Belgium, Italy...) later collectivly known as opration Gladio refer to:
BBC documentary series Gladio:
http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=16921

and especcialy:
Danielle Ganser: Nato's secret Armies :
Operation Gladio and Terrorism in Western Europe


And other external links at wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

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