the Ukrainian insurgent army,collaborators or resistants?

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Askold
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#121

Post by Askold » 30 Dec 2005, 21:40

Manweru:
As a grandson of UPA officer, you are a grandson of a member of genocidal organisation, quite likely grandson of a war criminal guilty of mass murder of civilians- this makes you more likely to be biased, especially since facing the full extent of UPAs deeds would force you to look at your own family member as a likely war criminal and mass murderer.
- If personal offences are your best argument than you must be running out of BS :) My grandmother was also an Operation Visla victum, but that has nothing to do with the topic.

Emotional rejection and mockery instead of facing facts.
- Because I find these generalized, overblown accusations amusing.

It's fully possible to cruelly murder the population of a entire village in one day - note that many of kinds of torture conducted by UPA could be done fast with sharp tools, it did't require hours of work.
125 torture methods X 1 willage = will not equal to one day's work. At least try to come up with something credible next time.

There is no contradiciton actually. (Western) Ukrainians were largely rural people without much education - while the Jews were often educated - UPA simply needed the services of Jewish doctors who served UPA out of fear for their lives.
- You're posting this to try to offend me by stating Ukrainina were without educatinon? I'll ignore that (hopefully moderator will pick these remarks at some point). Also, if you don't deny the fact of Jews in UPA, then you're compatriot should not provide me with pointless articles on UPA pogroms.


AdaOg
Ukrainian Nationalism,
Activities Sponsored by Nazi Germany (1)
- I asked you for UPA German collaboration. You don't understand English that well, or you purposely keep sticking in irrelevent material?

Poland officially leads two investigation against them
1. Known murdery of Huta Pieniacka
2. less known:
Investigation into the shooting at an unidentified date between 1 February 1944 and 31 March 1944 of at least fifty people of Polish nationality at Płotycz Mała in the Tarnopol county (presently in western Ukraine). An IPN prosecutor has determined that the crime could be committed by soldiers of the Ukrainian SS Galizien, on the instigation of local Ukrainian nationalists, or by German soldiers. The prosecutor will hear members of the families of the victims and eyewitnesses of the crime, who are now living in Lower Silesia.
- Its interesting how topic from UPA-German collaboration, got completely twisted.
1. Huta Pieniacka was a partizan base. The willage was taken by 4 and 5th SS POLICE regiments, which later moved on. The partizans then wer executed by the Germans.
2. Galicia divison was never in the vicinity of Ternopil'.

I also received information to my private mail sent form Wisenthal Center according to my question of 14 SS division Galicia. Apart of Huta Pieniacka Wisenthal did not consider 14 ss dicision as criminal unit, but it consisted mostly by murderers of former Ukrainian auxiliary policemen -very cruel and brutal murderers.
- Is there such thing as murderers who are not very cruel and brutal? ;) Such "colorfull words" remind me of the language used by Communist propaganda.

P.S.
And that is why Canada can be a little frightened

http://www.ukar.org/index.html

I have never seen so much hate on one site. And in Cana lives great Ukrainian dispora of such eagar people...
Even though this is irrelevent bickering on your behalf, can you tell me where do you see the hate on that side? Honestly, I am curious.

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#122

Post by Manweru » 31 Dec 2005, 04:40

Askold wrote:Manweru:
As a grandson of UPA officer, you are a grandson of a member of genocidal organisation, quite likely grandson of a war criminal guilty of mass murder of civilians- this makes you more likely to be biased, especially since facing the full extent of UPAs deeds would force you to look at your own family member as a likely war criminal and mass murderer.
- If personal offences are your best argument than you must be running out of BS :) My grandmother was also an Operation Visla victum, but that has nothing to do with the topic.
These are not offences but merely statements of facts. Your grandfather was a member of a genocidal Nazi organisation and likely a war criminal. It's not insult but a fact, the same way saying that a SS officer is a member of genocidal organisation and likely a war criminal is not personal offence,but a fact.

The syndrome of denial of information acceptance of which would lead to necessity of condemning a family member or some other person or organisation one has been attached to is generally a known thing and it perfectly explains cases of genocide [occurance/responsibility/scale] denial in which the denier firmly persists in his position despite overhelming evidence showing that the position of flawed.

Emotional rejection and mockery instead of facing facts.
- Because I find these generalized, overblown accusations amusing.
The problem is that they are not overblown. Holocaust could look even more unreal to somebody, and yet it happened, it was done by similiar people as UPA BTW.
It's fully possible to cruelly murder the population of a entire village in one day - note that many of kinds of torture conducted by UPA could be done fast with sharp tools, it did't require hours of work.
125 torture methods X 1 willage = will not equal to one day's work. At least try to come up with something credible next time.
Failed attempt at fallacy tactic. Over a hundred methods of torture were noted to be used by UPA, but nobody said every method was used in every village or at every victim.
There is no contradiciton actually. (Western) Ukrainians were largely rural people without much education - while the Jews were often educated - UPA simply needed the services of Jewish doctors who served UPA out of fear for their lives.
- You're posting this to try to offend me by stating Ukrainina were without educatinon? I'll ignore that (hopefully moderator will pick these remarks at some point).
Again, this is not insult but statement of facts. Some nations have more educated people among them, some have less. Generally, urban population is usually educated, while rural population is seldom educated.
Western Ukrainians from whom the UPA soldiers were recruited, were mostly rural population, while the cities of today Western Ukraine were populated mostly by Poles and Jews- and because of that, Ukrainians were seldom educated, unlike the urban Polish and Jewish population.
Also, if you don't deny the fact of Jews in UPA, then you're compatriot should not provide me with pointless articles on UPA pogroms.
UPA-B even murdered Ukrainians (during struggle with Melnyk's UPA-M faction and during mass murders of Poles for 'treason' for Ukrainians who did't cooperate with UPA) , so I don't see why it would't kill Jews. UPA exploited Jewish doctors, but it does't necessarily mean it was't tolerant toward Jews- German Nazis used forced labor of Jews too.


M.


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#123

Post by Askold » 31 Dec 2005, 10:38

Manweru:

These are not offences but merely statements of facts. Your grandfather was a member of a genocidal Nazi organisation and likely a war criminal. It's not insult but a fact, the same way saying that a SS officer is a member of genocidal organisation and likely a war criminal is not personal offence,but a fact.
- Just like not all SS engaged in war crimes, you cannot generalise such statements without looking stupid.
The syndrome of denial of information acceptance of which would lead to necessity of condemning a family member or some other person or organisation one has been attached to is generally a known thing and it perfectly explains cases of genocide [occurance/responsibility/scale] denial in which the denier firmly persists in his position despite overhelming evidence showing that the position of flawed.
- So far, you did not provide me with any evidence. I asked you a simple question regardin the statistics of Polish population in 1919 and 1939. You could not even answer that.

Again, this is not insult but statement of facts. Some nations have more educated people among them, some have less.
- Great, so now you're making racist statements.

Generally, urban population is usually educated, while rural population is seldom educated.
Western Ukrainians from whom the UPA soldiers were recruited, were mostly rural population, while the cities of today Western Ukraine were populated mostly by Poles and Jews- and because of that, Ukrainians were seldom educated, unlike the urban Polish and Jewish population.
- I would assume that every army in the world would be predominatly countryside consripts, but in your opinon while UPA consisted of brutal uneducated pesants, AK was composed from university proffesors? Has it ever occured to you that even in such backward country as Interwar Poland there were village schools?

UPA-B even murdered Ukrainians (during struggle with Melnyk's UPA-M faction and during mass murders of Poles for 'treason' for Ukrainians who did't cooperate with UPA) , so I don't see why it would't kill Jews. UPA exploited Jewish doctors, but it does't necessarily mean it was't tolerant toward Jews- German Nazis used forced labor of Jews too.

I want you to answer for your words. Please provide me with:
1. Stats for Polish population in Volyn in 1919 and 1939
2. Proof that Jews were foced into UPA

Manweru
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#124

Post by Manweru » 31 Dec 2005, 13:49

Askold wrote:Manweru:

These are not offences but merely statements of facts. Your grandfather was a member of a genocidal Nazi organisation and likely a war criminal. It's not insult but a fact, the same way saying that a SS officer is a member of genocidal organisation and likely a war criminal is not personal offence,but a fact.
- Just like not all SS engaged in war crimes, you cannot generalise such statements without looking stupid.
SS and UPA were generally genocidal organisations with war crimes on their account and I don't see anything wrong or "stupid" in that what I wrote.

- So far, you did not provide me with any evidence. I asked you a simple question regardin the statistics of Polish population in 1919 and 1939. You could not even answer that.
Yes, I could't, but what is the importance of this information - do you wish to claim that there was no UPA massacred because there was no Poles in Volyn for UPA to murder or what?
Again, this is not insult but statement of facts. Some nations have more educated people among them, some have less.
- Great, so now you're making racist statements.
These are no racist statements at all -different nations have different lifestyle, different culture and for example different urban vs rural population ratio. For example today the percentage of educated people among Ukrainians is much higher,because after WWII Ukrainians migrated to the cities, taking the place of displaced or exterminated Polish and Jewish population.
- I would assume that every army in the world would be predominatly countryside consripts, but in your opinon while UPA consisted of brutal uneducated pesants, AK was composed from university proffesors? Has it ever occured to you that even in such backward country as Interwar Poland there were village schools?
Village schools yes, village medical academies no- and I've spoken about education when speaking about Jewish doctors, IE in terms of higher education.

I want you to answer for your words. Please provide me with:
1. Stats for Polish population in Volyn in 1919 and 1939
2. Proof that Jews were foced into UPA
1. The Polish population in Volyn region (AFAIK according to Russian regional division) around 19th/20th century was: 9.9% Poles, 67.1% Ukrainians, total population of all nationalities 2949.700 people.

During the 1920-1939, percentage Polish population in that region raised to 16.6%. (but I don't know if the regional division was the same under Russia and Poland)

2. Do you have proof they went willingly? AFAIK Jews considered Ukrainians to be Nazi allies and it would hardly make sense for them to fight for Ukraine.


M.

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#125

Post by Askold » 31 Dec 2005, 20:25

SS and UPA were generally genocidal organisations with war crimes on their account and I don't see anything wrong or "stupid" in that what I wrote.
- When you're making specific statements, you can't use general terms ie. "all poles", "mass killings" ect.

These are no racist statements at all -different nations have different lifestyle, different culture and for example different urban vs rural population ratio. For example today the percentage of educated people among Ukrainians is much higher,because after WWII Ukrainians migrated to the cities, taking the place of displaced or exterminated Polish and Jewish population.
- So you're saying in Poland all Poles were in the cities and those murderous Ukrainian were all pesants? Just to teach you a lesson, here's a stats for Interwar Poland - 72% Poles were backward uneducated pesants. As for culture and lifestyle - Polad was an agricutlural country. Need I say more? ;)

Population Density and Distribution
The most important change in postwar Poland's population distribution was the intense urbanization that took place during the first two decades of communist rule. The priorities of central economic planning undoubtedly hastened this movement, but experts hypothesize that it would have occurred after World War II in any case. In 1931 some 72.6 percent of the population was classified as rural, with nearly 60 percent relying directly on agriculture for their livelihood.


http://countrystudies.us/poland/27.htm

Village schools yes, village medical academies no- and I've spoken about education when speaking about Jewish doctors, IE in terms of higher education.
- You clearly reffered to UPA as being uneducated pesants, followed by rasist statement that Ukrainians were uneducated. I raised this issue and stated that even such background country as Poland, had village schools. So you cannot lable them as uneducated. I also raised the issue that every army relied on pesant conscripts and intewar Poland was 72% pesants (which would make AK pesant too). So now you're twisting your words pretending to speak only about Jews. Even though Poland would not allow Ukrainians to study at home, they went to study in such places as Germany and Austria.

1. The Polish population in Volyn region (AFAIK according to Russian regional division) around 19th/20th century was: 9.9% Poles, 67.1% Ukrainians, total population of all nationalities 2949.700 people.

During the 1920-1939, percentage Polish population in that region raised to 16.6%. (but I don't know if the regional division was the same under Russia and Poland)
- Thank you. This proves my earlier point. Due to influx of Polish colonists to Volyn', the population nearly doubled. So please don't speak to me about ethnic Polish population. Half of them were immigrants.
2. Do you have proof they went willingly? AFAIK Jews considered Ukrainians to be Nazi allies and it would hardly make sense for them to fight for Ukraine.
- Please don't answer my question with a question. Despite your biases, there were Jews who supported Ukrainian cause. As early as 1848, local Galician Jews donated money for purchase of a canon for Ruthenian Guard. In Polish-Ukrainian war, number of Jews fought on Ukrainian side and there was even Rabbi chaplain in YSS legion. You either provide me with proof that Jews were forced in UPA or admit that you're wrong.
Last edited by Askold on 31 Dec 2005, 20:45, edited 1 time in total.

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#126

Post by Askold » 31 Dec 2005, 20:42

I am taking the topic of ecucation one step further, to say that in my opinion, the Ukrainian pesants were more self-concious than the Polish pesants. The more Intewar Poland tried to opress Ukrainians, the more self-concious they became (if you keep on telling someone of their differences, you yourself are making them aware of this). The levels of education (and self-conciousness) were kept up by Prosvita societies, which were cultural institutions. Everu region had one, and every big village had sub-branches, which had things like library, Ukrainin languge school, Ukrainian press ect. Similarly to Jewish Bund in Tsarist Russia. In total Prosvita published around 3.000.000 books and probably as much newsapers. Here is a map of major Prosvita locations in Galicia.

More on Prosvita Society:
http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pa ... osvita.htm
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Prosvita_map.jpg
Prosvita_map.jpg (131.02 KiB) Viewed 1322 times

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#127

Post by Manweru » 01 Jan 2006, 06:02

Askold wrote:migrated to the cities, taking the place of displaced or exterminated Polish and Jewish population.
- So you're saying in Poland all Poles were in the cities and those murderous Ukrainian were all pesants?
[/quote]

No. The first part is not truth, but the second part is largely truth- vast majority of Western Ukrainians were peasants.
Just to teach you a lesson, here's a stats for Interwar Poland - 72% Poles were backward uneducated pesants. As for culture and lifestyle - Polad was an agricutlural country. Need I say more? ;)
Actually you do if you want to prove something- what you wrote did't contradict what I wrote. Poles were a rural relatively undeveloped nation, but Western Ukrainians were even more undeveloped. Generally, there were more Poles than Ukrainians in the cities of Western Ukraine.
- Thank you. This proves my earlier point. Due to influx of Polish colonists to Volyn', the population nearly doubled. So please don't speak to me about ethnic Polish population. Half of them were immigrants.
1. Immigrants are human too and murdering them is still genocide.
2. Slight majority of them were not immigrants.
- Please don't answer my question with a question. Despite your biases, there were Jews who supported Ukrainian cause. As early as 1848, local Galician Jews donated money for purchase of a canon for Ruthenian Guard. In Polish-Ukrainian war, number of Jews fought on Ukrainian side and there was even Rabbi chaplain in YSS legion. You either provide me with proof that Jews were forced in UPA or admit that you're wrong.
And what kind of information do you have about their recruitment and activity in the UPA?


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#128

Post by henryk » 01 Jan 2006, 21:43

http://slavija.proboards37.com/index.cg ... 1136087989
Old pictures of Polish life in Wolyn and UPA massacres.

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#129

Post by Larry D. » 02 Jan 2006, 00:03

The last photo, the one of the school boys, if VERY telling if one looks closely at their faces.

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#130

Post by Manweru » 02 Jan 2006, 02:40

Larry D. wrote:The last photo, the one of the school boys, if VERY telling if one looks closely at their faces.
They all seem to look unhappy, is that what you mean? Or something else?

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#131

Post by batu » 02 Jan 2006, 02:41

Larry D. wrote:The last photo, the one of the school boys, if VERY telling if one looks closely at their faces.
what is so special in their faces?
Do these 10-13 yo kids look evil and are you tryign to say you can identify the murderers by their childhood photos or even that murderers have some kind of special faces? :?

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#132

Post by Askold » 02 Jan 2006, 09:03

Manweru:
No. The first part is not truth, but the second part is largely truth- vast majority of Western Ukrainians were peasants.
- If they are living in a country that is 75% pesant in all, then yes, majority of Western Ukrainians would be pesants. But not uneducated.


Actually you do if you want to prove something- what you wrote did't contradict what I wrote. Poles were a rural relatively undeveloped nation, but Western Ukrainians were even more undeveloped.
- Ok, prove me please that Ukrainian pesants were more uderdeveloped than Polish pesants.


1. Immigrants are human too and murdering them is still genocide.
2. Slight majority of them were not immigrants.
- Ok, I'll agree that they are humans, but that was not the point of the conversation :) 16% - 9% = 7% . Slight majority indeed.
Quote:

- Please don't answer my question with a question. Despite your biases, there were Jews who supported Ukrainian cause. As early as 1848, local Galician Jews donated money for purchase of a canon for Ruthenian Guard. In Polish-Ukrainian war, number of Jews fought on Ukrainian side and there was even Rabbi chaplain in YSS legion. You either provide me with proof that Jews were forced in UPA or admit that you're wrong.



And what kind of information do you have about their recruitment and activity in the UPA?
- You're still trying to answer my question with another question (reminds me of a jewish anecdote I've heard ;) Please answer to your words, and prove me that Jews were forced into UPA.

Henryk:

Am I supposed to post Ukrainian photos now? Or do I have to agree with you just because you keep posting same photos over and over again? What is the point of your repetitive action?

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#133

Post by AdaOg » 02 Jan 2006, 09:59

UPA is connected with OUN.

The Ukrainian Insurgent Army (Ukrainian: Українська Повстанська Армія, Ukrayins’ka Povstans’ka Armiya, UPA) was a guerrilla army formed on October 14, 1942, in Volhynia. The UPA was the military branch of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists. The main goal of the UPA was an independent Ukraine. Its leaders were Roman Shukhevych and Stepan Bandera.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army



About Jewish point of view of UPA.

http://www.aish.com/holocaust/people/gorniak_family.asp
http://www.aish.com/holocaust/people/francisca.asp


About Ukrainian "hostlility" towards nazi Germans

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/poland4.htm




There are 2.600 sources concerning genocide of Poles on Wołyń (now Ukraine).

We can distinguish two main periods of crimes committed by Ukrainian nationalists in 1939-1945 on Polish nation living there:
I - September 1939 to October 1942. On that time Ukrainian nationalists have murdered 1500 persons, majority 1100 persons were killed in 1939 and over 200 attacks of terrorists (without victims) - incl. robberies attempted murders arsons and assaults.
Published documents tell that in East Małopolska crimes were more frequent. There is the estimation of 4-5 thousand of victims. It must be admitted that on that period , in the summer of 1941 Ukrainians made mass murders of over 2000 Jews under the banner of "Petlura’s days" in Lviv, and a few hundered Jews in Krzemieniec and a few dozen smaller places. There is plenty of Israeli and German books (Shmul Spector, Dieter Pohl, Tomas Held) written on that topic.

II the time of tenacity and ruthless in biological destruction of Poles (also Jews who were rescued from the ghettos liquidation) – period since last quarter of 1942 r. And 1943-1945 ending with deportation of Poles.

Crimes of OUN-UPA on Poles only on Wołyń during WWII are:
 Amount of murdered poles in documented places and documented time in 1942-1945 is ca 35.500,
 From that amount 33.500 were killed in 1943, when Ukrainian tried to kill every Pole ,
 In July and August 1943 r. :there were murdered at least 10.500 persons in July and it took places in 530 places and at least 8.300 persons in August in at least 300 places
 In 17 places there were killed over 200 persons,
 Tu sum up in 1939-1945 in Wołyń there are documented places and time of murdering 36.650 Poles, in at least 1.721 places, and the persons known with their names 19.400.

Estimated amount of killed Poles (whole places) by Ukrainians in 1939-1945 is estimated on 60 thousands (it was documented by the priests deaths’ registers made as a report for Vatican)

Poles answered for OUN-UPA crimes:
Polish self-defence (those units were established after the 1943-the year of crimes) units and Polish underground army AK fought with Ukrainians in 148 places. In 23 places Poles made the offensive in order to prevent next crimes. During the fights there were at least 311 Ukrainians killed, - members of nationalist raiding parties.
In 44 places Poles made retaliations, where 113 Ukrainian have died.

It is known that the terror of Ukrainian OUN aimed to Ukrainian nation was also great and is estimated on 80 thousands dead persons.

The characteristics of crimes committed by Ukrainians (according to documents) is:
1. On Wołyń there were attempts to make total destruction of Polish nation as total as did it German according to Jews , starting with infants ending with old men. Poles were (similar to Jews) tracked, caught, and killed individually and in community. There were also killed Orthodox Poles and that Poles who even didn’t know polish language.
In the East Małopolska, besides total genocide there was also selective genocide e.g. only men were killed.
2. The mass murders were made in cruel and sadistic way even on the people who were known among Ukrainians as decent people and to people to whom Ukrainians owed something. Sadistic ways of killing children were documented in many books. : e.g. fixing child’s tongue with the knife to the table (the child was hanging on the tongue), throwing them into burning flames, crashing infant’s heads.
I have found the memory of one person: Ukrainian captured Polish family. The victim and the executioner knew one another. Older man asked them to kill them quickly but Ukrainians took his 2-years old grandson, impaled on bayonet and constantly laughing turned the child on the bayonet in the air.
Person from my parents village has seen, as 6-years old child the death (butchering with sickle) of whole her family (she was hidden as the smallest person inside the stove). I have also other memories of the people. Such memories that made me cried – butchering small old children, cutting off the women’s breasts. I can translate that memory if anyone wants to read.
1.
It must be mentioned: Orthodox priests were also involved in those crimes. They spurred on Ukrainians to butcher Poles and they did it personally either.
2. There were exterminated also mixed families and families where the Ukrainian blood was „spoiled”. The crimes were committed by OUN UPA or by the member of the family who found out that he made “mistake of his live”. There were known such crimes: husband had killed his wife, wife had murdered his husband, children murdered their parents, parents murdered their children, and bothers killed their sisters who intended to marry Poles.
3. Neighbours and friends often committed the murderers - for years in good terms with one another.
4. Besides biologically annihilation Ukrainians intended to destroy every trace of Polish history and presence.

In III period, after the genocide. Polish government made trials to regard those crimes by Ukrainian Government.

Of course Ukrainian people: denied to make damnation, they tell that amount of murdered people was much lower, they twisted facts.

There are also rumours that OUN UPA living members would receive the veterans’ status.



Funny story: the eyewitness of those days visited the place where she was born and where she survived the murders. Suddenly she recognised her 2 school colleagues, members of OUN UPA. They had warm memories about parents-in –a -law of that woman-witness. She asked: so why did you murder them? They have told : because of such time...

The both fractions of OUN were informed of planned by Germans invasion to ZSRR (what is meant also to Poland dividen according to Ribentropp-Molotov's pact). The activists of Bandera’s OUN made two battalions of Wehrmacht, dependent to Abwehra - Nachtigall and Roland. The Battalion of Nachtigall went into Lwów (Lviv) on 30th of June 1941.
The battalion Nachtigall took part in murdering of Lwów’s professors.
They also made for Germans proscriptions list of Polish intellectualises to be killed.

Published lately archival pictures from the first days of German occupation let people believe that activists of OUN Bandera’s (Iwan Kłymiw-Łehenda and his militia) took part in Jews murders in first days of July 1941, and at the end of that month they did "Petlura’s days" – mass murders on Jews.
From the 1st of August 1941 district Galizien (Halicja) was included to General Goubernment, treated as Polish territory, what was the slap in the face of both fractions of OUN.
OUN Melnyk’s also has sent to help Germans their unit called "Bukowińskim kureniem" . They reached Kijew and turned into police unit Schutzmannschaften, who is expected to taking part in mass murdering of Jews in Babi Jar close to Kijev.


The Germans made recruitment of those Ukrainian, OUN-simpatico, especially OUN Bandera supporters, to Schutzmannschaften units, and Germans ordered to take parts in pacification of the Ukrainian villages, who were accused of helping Russians partisans. E.g. on 23rd September 1942 r. Ukrainian Police took part in pacification of Kortelisa village on Polesie. Together Germans and Ukrainians made massacre of 2.875 inhabitants incl 1.620 Ukrainian children.
Because the Germans did not the proclamation of the Ukrainian State units of Nachtigall and Roland lost the trust for Germans and Ukrainians decided to dismiss the units. After policy training they were turned into 201 unit Schutzmannschaften and as the contract unit was sent to fight with partisans.
Last edited by AdaOg on 02 Jan 2006, 13:51, edited 1 time in total.

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#134

Post by AdaOg » 02 Jan 2006, 10:55

May 4, 2005

SWC Annual Report on Nazi War Criminals Reveals Dramatic Rise of Almost 100% in New Investigations; Slams Ukraine and Others for Failure to Bring Nazis to Justice; Praises US for Outstanding Success During Past Year

The Simon Wiesenthal Center’s fifth Annual Status Report on the Worldwide Investigation and Prosecution of Nazi War Criminals for the period from April 1, 2004 – March 31, 2005 points to the continuing success of the United States in prosecuting Holocaust perpetrators during the past year and the surprising potential for future prosecutions as the number of new investigations initiated (in at least eleven countries) during the past twelve months reached the figure of six hundred and fifty-nine (an increase of 97% over the previous year) and the number of cases currently under investigation (in fifteen countries) reached at least one thousand two hundred and eighteen (an increase of almost 30% over the figure for the period from April 1, 2003 – March 31, 2004).

The report singles out Ukraine as the country which has done the least in recent years to bring Nazis to justice in comparison to the efforts which it should have invested to deal with former Holocaust perpetrators, and highlights the failure of Croatia and Austria to prosecute Milivoj Asner, the notorious police chief of Pozega, Croatia who played an important role in the persecution and murder of hundreds of innocent civilians, and who following his exposure by the Wiesenthal Center’s “Operation: Last Chance” project in June 2004 escaped to Klagenfurt Austria, where he presently resides.

The report praised the Nazi-hunting activities of the Office of Special Investigations of the US Justice Department as the most successful agency of its kind in the world, and awarded grades ranging from A (highest) to F to more than three dozen countries which were either the site of Nazi crimes or admitted Holocaust perpetrators after World War II.

The author of the report, Israel director Dr. Efraim Zuroff, who coordinates the Center’s research on Nazi war criminals worldwide, noted that the statistics in the report clearly show that a significant measure of justice can still be achieved against Nazi war criminals. “Since January 2001, thirty-two convictions against Holocaust perpetrators have been obtained, thirty-five new indictments have been filed, and hundreds of new investigations have been initiated. Despite the somewhat prevalent assumption that it is too late to bring Nazi murderers to justice, the figures clearly prove otherwise, and it is clear that numerous cases of such criminals will continue to come to trial during the coming years. While it is generally assumed that it is the age of the suspects that is the biggest obstacle to prosecution, in many cases it is the lack of political will, more than anything else, that has hindered the efforts to bring Holocaust perpetrators to justice, along with the mistaken notion that it was impossible at this point to locate, identify, and convict these criminals. The success achieved by dedicated prosecution agencies, and especially by the US Office of Special Investigations, should be a catalyst for governments all over the world to make a serious effort to maximize justice while it can still be obtained.”

Zuroff went on to explain that the Report’s purpose was to focus public attention on the issue and thereby “encourage all the governments involved to maximize their efforts to ensure that as many as possible of the unprosecuted Holocaust perpetrators will be held accountable for their crimes. In that respect, we seek to highlight both the positive results achieved by countries like the United States, as well as the abject failures of countries like Ukraine, which has so many potential suspects but has not taken the necessary measures to bring them to justice, as well as Sweden and Norway which in principle refuse to investigate, let alone prosecute (due to a statue of limitations), and others who have either chosen to ignore the issue (Syria) or which have consistently failed to deal with it effectively primarily due to a lack of the requisite political will (Estonia and many others).”


WORLDWIDE INVESTIGATION AND PROSECUTION OF NAZI WAR CRIMINALS

April 1, 2004 – March 31, 2005

An Annual Status Report

By Dr. Efraim Zuroff

Executive Summary

1. During the period in question the investigation and prosecution of Nazi war criminals continued in fifteen countries, among them countries such as Germany, Austria and Poland in which the crimes of the Holocaust were committed and others like the United States and Canada which afforded a postwar haven to Holocaust perpetrators.

From April 1, 2004 until March 31, 2005, five convictions of Nazi war criminals were obtained – all in the United States. Most of those convicted served as armed guards in concentration and death camps in Poland and Germany. The number of convictions is lower by two than the number achieved during the previous year. From January 1, 2001 until March 31, 2005, a total of thirty-two convictions of Nazi war criminals were obtained all over the world. Of these convictions, twenty-three were in the United States with the others convicted in Germany (3), Canada (3), Poland (1), France (1), and Lithuania (1).

3. During the period under review, legal proceedings were initiated against at least six Nazi war criminals in four countries - three in the United States, one in Hungary, one in Denmark and one in Lithuania. The number of indictments obtained this year is lower by four than the figure achieved during the previous year. From January 1, 2001, thirty-five indictments have been submitted against Nazi war criminals, the majority in the United States.

4. During the period under review, new investigations were initiated in eleven countries against at least six hundred and fifty-nine suspected Holocaust perpetrators (an increase of 97% from the previous year), and at the moment there are ongoing investigations against more than one thousand two hundred and twelve suspected Nazi war criminals in fifteen countries (an increase of almost 30% from last year), with the largest number of cases being investigated in Poland (450), the United States (226), Austria (199), Canada (190), Latvia (58) and Germany(46).

5. This year we have chosen the United States as the country with the most outstanding record in bringing Nazi war criminals to justice.

At the same time we have singled out Ukraine for its total failure to address the issue of Holocaust perpetrators, and are highlighting the failure of Croatia and Austria to prosecute Milivoj Asner who served as police chief of Pozega, Croatia during World War II and played an important role in the persecution and murder of hundreds of Jews, Serbs and Gypsies. After Asner was exposed living in Croatia by the Wiesenthal Center’s “Operation: Last Chance” project, he escaped to Klagenfurt, Austria where he currently resides.

We also want to point to the continued in-principle refusal of Sweden and Norway to investigate Nazi war criminals due to existing statutes of limitation.



INVESTIGATION AND PROSECUTION REPORT CARD

As part of this year’s annual status report, we have given grades ranging from A (highest) to F which reflects the Wiesenthal Center’s evaluation of the efforts and results achieved by various countries during the period under review. (Countries that failed to respond to the questionnaire and in which there is no indication of any activity to investigate and/or prosecute Nazi war criminals were included in category X.)

The grades granted are categorized as follows:

Category A: Highly Successful Investigation and Prosecution Program

Those countries, which have adopted a proactive stance on the issue, have taken all reasonable measures to identify the potential suspected Nazi war criminals in the country in order to maximize investigation and prosecution and have achieved notable results during the period under review.

Category B: Ongoing Investigation and Prosecution Program Which Has Achieved Practical Success

Those countries, which during the period under review, have obtained at least one conviction and/or filed an indictment accompanied by an extradition request (if the suspect was living elsewhere).

Category C: Minimal Success That Could Have Been Greater, Additional Steps Urgently Required

Those countries which have failed to obtain any convictions or register at least one indictment (with an extradition request) during the period under review, but have either advanced ongoing cases currently in litigation or have opened new investigations which have serious potential for prosecution.

Category D: Insufficient and/or Unsuccessful Efforts

Those countries which have ostensibly made at least a minimal effort to investigate Nazi war criminals but which failed to achieve any practical results, or those countries in which the issue had no practical dimension during the period under review. In many cases these countries have stopped or reduced their efforts to deal with this issue long before they should have and should achieve important results if they were to change their policy.

Category F: Total Failure

Those countries, which refuse in principle to investigate, let alone prosecute, suspected Nazi war criminals despite clear-cut evidence that such individuals were residing within their borders.

A: USA
B: Denmark, Hungary

C: Australia, Canada, Germany, Holland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland

D: Austria, Colombia, Croatia, Estonia, Finland, Great Britain, New Zealand, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia
F: Norway, Sweden, Syria, Ukraine
X: Argentina, Belarus, Belgium, Bolivia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Brazil, Chile, Costa Rica, Czech Republic,
France, Greece, Luxemburg, Paraguay, Russia, Spain, Uruguay, Venezuela, Yugoslavia



TEN MOST PROMINENT CURRENT CASES OF NAZI WAR CRIMINALS

1. Alois Brunner – Syria
Key operative of Adolf Eichmann
Responsible for deportation of Jews from Austria (47,000) Greece (44,000) France (23,500) and Slovakia (14,000) to Nazi death camps

Status – Syrian refusal to cooperate stymies prosecution efforts; convicted in absentia by France

Dr. Aribert Heim - ?

Doctor in Mauthausen and Buchenwald concentration camps

Murdered hundreds of camp inmates by lethal injection

Status – disappeared in 1962 prior to planned prosecution; strong evidence that he is still alive

Ivan Demjanjuk – USA
Participated in mass murder of Jews in Sobibor death camp; also served in Majdanek death camp and Trawniki SS-training camp
Status – denaturalized in USA; facing deportation from USA; under investigation in Poland

Ladislav Niznansky - Germany
Commander of Nazi “Edelweiss” unit that murdered dozens of Jews and Slovak anti-Nazi partisans
Status: currently on trial in Germany

Milivoj Asner – Austria
Police chief of Slavonska Pozega, Croatia throughout World War II
active role in persecution and deportation to death of hundreds of Jews, Gypsies and Serbs

Status – discovered in 2004 on framework of “Operation: Last Chance;” under investigation in Croatia and Austria

6. Jack Reimer – USA
Participated in murder of Polish Jews as officer of Trawniki SS-training camp
Status: denaturalized in USA; faces deportation

7. Mikhail Gorshkow – Estonia
Participated in murder of Jews in Belarus
Status: denaturalized in USA, under investigation in Estonia

8. Karoly (Charles) Zentai – Australia
Participated in manhunts, persecution, and murder of Jews in Budapest in 1944


Status – discovered in 2004 by “Operation: Last Chance;” Hungary has issued an international arrest warrant against him and has asked for his extradition from Australia

9. Algimantas Dailide – Germany
Arrested Jews murdered by Nazis and Lithuanian collaborators
Status: deported from USA; indicted by Lithuania, which has not yet sought his extradition

Harry Mannil – Venezuela
Arrested Jews and Communists executed by Nazis and Estonian collaborators
Status: under investigation in Estonia

http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/s/c ... &ct=836931

Manweru
Member
Posts: 120
Joined: 18 Nov 2005, 06:40
Location: Poland

#135

Post by Manweru » 02 Jan 2006, 15:05

Askold wrote:Manweru:
No. The first part is not truth, but the second part is largely truth- vast majority of Western Ukrainians were peasants.
- If they are living in a country that is 75% pesant in all, then yes, majority of Western Ukrainians would be pesants. But not uneducated.
Yes, and percentage of peasants among Western Ukrainians was higher than average for Poland, because the 75% together was taken including the Polish and Jewish urban population.
Actually you do if you want to prove something- what you wrote did't contradict what I wrote. Poles were a rural relatively undeveloped nation, but Western Ukrainians were even more undeveloped.
- Ok, prove me please that Ukrainian pesants were more uderdeveloped than Polish pesants.
In Galicja/Halychyna Ukrainian and Polish peasants were the same, but the Polish population was much more developed because it consisted of much larger number of urban population, while Western Ukrainians were almost only peasants.
1. Immigrants are human too and murdering them is still genocide.
2. Slight majority of them were not immigrants.
- Ok, I'll agree that they are humans, but that was not the point of the conversation :) 16% - 9% = 7% . Slight majority indeed.
Yes, still it means that UPA murdered more indigenous Polish population than settlers.
Further, among the settlers there were more officers and politically active Poles, while the old Polish population were mostly simple peasants- when to Soviets came, NKVD arrested a higher percentage of the settlers, than of the peasants.
- You're still trying to answer my question with another question (reminds me of a jewish anecdote I've heard ;) Please answer to your words, and prove me that Jews were forced into UPA.
Ok,I have no proof that Jews were forces into UPA.


M.

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